A lot of companies say their employees are their greatest resource, but how many actually make good on that statement? Kaas Tailored in Mukilteo (north of Seattle) makes furniture for industrial use – think airplane seats and Nordstrom shoe department couches.
Owner Jeff Kaas has dedicated his life to creating a business model that honors his people first. Jeff believes if you do that, everything else, including profits, will follow.
Jeff took over the business from his father. In this episode, he explains how their trip to Japan in the 1990s changed everything and put him on a path to business enlightenment.
Jeff is passionate about sharing what he’s learned. Tens of thousands of business leaders have toured Kaas Tailored to learn the secret of Jeff’s success.
Resources from the episode:
- Learn more about Kaas Tailored, their commitment to developing people, and their efforts to make the workplace one of joy and learning.
- Through his consulting company, Truth Bit Pull, Jeff helps guide organizations through their own transformation into sustainable cultures of continuous improvement. Get in touch with the team here.
- Want to connect with Jeff directly? Message him on LinkedIn.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: Jeff Kaas and Mark Wright
JEFF KAAS 00:00
Why would you allow any amount of money to come into your pocket without returning something of greater value, which is a culture where we can experience joy at work, and oh, by the way, the science says joyful people do much better work and they innovate better, right? So, there’s, you don’t need a genius to say, wouldn’t it be better if we did joyful work?Right? Even your dog would be wagging his tail going. Yeah, that one. Yeah, do, do that. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 00:23
This is the BEATS WORKING Show. We are on a mission to redeem work. The word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the Game of Work. Welcome to BEATS WORKING on today’s episode, growing your people to grow your company.You know, a lot of companies say their people are their most important resource, but if you take a closer look at employee experience, it just doesn’t match up at a lot of companies. For them, profit is everything, and if your workers are happy, that’s a bonus. Which makes me wonder how many companies are actually intentional about creating a business model that values and honors their employees?Put another way, how many companies put their employees first? Today’s guest on the show is Jeff Kaas. He owns a furniture manufacturing company in Mukilteo called Kaas Tailored. It’s about 20 miles north of Seattle. If you’ve flown on a plane or tried on shoes at Nordstrom, you have sat on Jeff’s work.His dad started the company, but in the nineties, they traveled to Japan to study Toyota’s business philosophy. They brought that home, made it their own, and proved it actually works, and Jeff says it can work at any company. He says, when you put your employees first, the rest will follow. Here’s my conversation with Jeff Kaas.We pick things up as Jeff is talking about how his dad founded the company.
JEFF KAAS 01:57
He started it. Um, he built a really strong foundation and, uh, it was always about keeping your word and, uh, taking care of people. Um, and he really did have an understanding of how to create value in a way that is consistent with principles.Uh, but, uh, it wasn’t until we got to Japan on the first trip where he was like, this is what I’ve been trying to teach you. So, it’s kind of cool to have a moment in time where all his years, uh, so yeah, I’m responsible today, but, uh, he, he really started it.
MARK WRIGHT 02:24
So, the business makes, uh, furniture for industrial purposes, right? You guys make airplane seats and, and couches for dentists’ offices. Is that, is that correct?
JEFF KAAS 02:34
So, we make, uh, yeah. So, when an airplane takes off, uh, from all the OEMs, uh, there is, uh, more than one product, uh, that our team col, uh, collaborated to make. Um, we also, uh, make furniture for Nordstrom stores, so if you try on shoes, you, you sit on our stuff.Uh, a lot of commercial furniture, uh, not dental offices so much, but, uh, in the waiting rooms of dental offices, yeah, for sure. So, uh, we, we just have this model where we wanna do cool things with cool people and then not spend time with other people. So, we have very few customers and we make a lot of stuff for those, those customers. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 03:07
So, Jeff, you started working with your dad when you were about 15, right? Um what was, what was that like, and, and what, what did you learn about your dad’s approach to business at that point as a 15-year-old?
JEFF KAAS 03:20
Wow. I knew lear, I definitely learned new ways to cuss at each other, which was bad. Uh, it was always about keeping your word. It was always about being honorable. Um, it was always about keeping promises and, and, uh, um, doing great work and being proud of the work we do. Um, having that being fulfilling. Um, and, uh, to, to be honest, it was, it was really the relationship that we didn’t have at home. So, it was really, uh, the way that I got to know my father. Um, and he got to, uh, embed some of the, um, values that I carry today. Um, that, uh, now I can look back and say, yeah, he was shepherding me the whole time, and, uh, really it caused us to learn and grow together. I think, um, it was not easy. Um, he’s an entre, entrepreneur, um, and he, he gave up a lot to have that business survive in those early days. Um, and I, you know, was kind of the kid who got to experience some of the consequences of that, like at home, you know, divorce and all that kind of fun stuff. So, um, one of the real early gifts he gave me when I, uh, got outta college was, don’t let this business consume more than about 50 hours a week of, of your life. Um, so you’re a failure if you do, and that, that, that, uh, really gave me a constraint to innovate within. Um, and so that allowed us to, like, when we were having our rough days, it was an opportunity to remind, uh, each other of, hey, this is what you’ve encouraged me to find a way to succeed with. So, it wasn’t easy, I think the people around us, uh, we fought a lot, I was really disrespectful. Um, I, um, yeah. Yeah, but the good thing is, is we were willing to accept each other. Uh, and there were many times when, uh, I would stand in, in, in the hallway yelling if you wanted a yes man, you hired the wrong effing guy and, uh, yeah, but, and then the, the volley going back the other way also was laced with things but something about you could show a little respect for what came before you, and he was right. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 05:20
But what a cool restraint uh, because so many, uh, of us start our working lives and we’re sort of told in so many words that if you’re not working 60 plus hours a week, you’re, you’re not pulling your weight.
JEFF KAAS 05:31
Yeah, it was a gift, a massive gift. Um, and it allowed me to be a husband, be a father, be a community member, be a coach, and also, uh, set the same, uh, constraint with the rest of the team to say, gee, I’d rather not work here than, uh, create a place that I don’t myself, um, believe in, and so, but it, it was the gift he gave me, um, that I only understood probably 20 years later, like, oh wow! Part of my thinking was infected by you know, don’t let this become your God and, uh, yeah. Yeah. What a gift.
MARK WRIGHT 006:04
Okay so, you’re working with your dad, you end up going to business school, but I heard you say in a, in a different interview that you had to unlearn almost everything you learned at business school. Um, tell me about that.
JEFF KAAS 06:18
Oh, please don’t tell anybody where I went to school on this, but, uh, yeah. Yep. It was all a bunch of bullshit, to be honest. So, here’s the deal, uh, most of the things that you can think about, um, in a college experience, you, you get to learn about yourself hopefully. Um, but in the business school, we’re doing case studies, so it’s a history, uh, but you’re looking at a moment in time and you’re like, celebrating this awesome company, and all the companies that we studied that were awesome failed within five years. Uh, so not to say that that wasn’t a good, uh, experience, um, but in the practical reality of running a business, um, what I needed to learn about was what are the questions that we need to ask? What are the, uh, what are the things that need to be true? What is actually always true, like principles? Um, I would’ve been much better at getting a drama degree, uh, or a music degree or a math degree, where I was taught there are things that are always true, never false. Study this so that when you see falsehoods, you’ll know, like the discernment was not part of my education. Wisdom, building trust – like, there’s nobody who taught us to be trustworthy at the business school. It was, it was the opposite. It was, well, how can you screw Johnny to get something from Suzy and then leverage that to get more money for yourself was a very selfish endeavor. So, um, and I, I can look back and say what I really needed at the time was to be plugged into community. Do you know that, uh, men and women fought for this country so that you can live and go to a school and learn? And what do you owe to the city, this, this school, this country, in light of what you’ve been given? Think could, had two years of that and I would’ve got way more. So yeah, please don’t quote where I went to, but it was a waste of time.
MARK WRIGHT 08:01
Well, you, you’re honest about it. Um, you, you, you said that you went to, uh, business school, right? So, four years of business school, you got out and, and you, when you got into the real world, you had trouble understanding what an invoice was, or a purchase order, and just the fundamentals of business, you, you were in the dark.
JEFF KAAS 08:21
Totally and embarrassed. Like, cause my dad was not college educated, so it was a big deal for me to go to college, uh, go to university. Um, I wasn’t a dumb kid. I got into a, a decent school here in the state and, uh, to not know what a purchase order was or an invoice or, uh, yeah, shockingly embarrassing and, and he was pissed. He’s like, what did I pay for? Like, what did you do there? And this is part, I own that, so, my responsibility, I thought I was learning a lot because I had this business background by going home and talking to him all the time about, hey, what I’m learning but, uh, um, I don’t think it’s all that unusual story. Uh, when I, when I, uh, have guests in the factory, I always ask, hey, you went to college, you went to high school, whatever. Um, you went there for four to six years. Um, how does that compare to your first six months in your real job? And the answer is always, I learned way more in six months. So, the question to me then becomes, why did we go to college? We spent six years not learning. Uh, there’s, yeah maybe we should be learning always. So, yeah. Questions to ask. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 09:26
Um, when your dad was 59 years old, uh, he kind of abruptly said, hey, I’m gonna retire when I’m 60. And, uh, his plan was to sell the business to you, but when it came time, this is sort of like a tough love sale, right? But when it came time to actually do the transaction, you were called in to sign the documents in front of the lawyers and, and you refused to sign them, because your wife’s name was not on the sale agreement. Is that, is that correct?
JEFF KAAS 09:57
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that 30-year-old.
MARK WRIGHT 10:00
I don’t think I’ve ever heard, uh, a business seal get held up by something like that before. That’s amazing. And well, why was that important?
JEFF KAAS 10:08
Woo. Could get emotional, didn’t, we? Didn’t even talk about that, but, uh, yeah. You know, um, I really have a, a core set of beliefs, and if I make a covenant with somebody, which I did when I got married. Um, that’s my first priority. Uh, job is a job. A business is a business, but a covenant to me means something quite a bit more. Um, and I, uh, experienced what it’s like to see marriages not work. And, uh, so, um, uh, so yeah, so just very selfishly, I, I didn’t wanna fail at being a father or being, uh, a husband, and I knew that if I let the business be about me, um, then that would be implying that I would be succeeding without the help of my wife, and honestly, if there’s any, any, any success I’ve ever had, it’s because Stacy’s, my spouse and we do things together. So, I don’t know how I knew that at age 30 to walk away from, the thing I had pursued my entire life was I wanted to run this company. I wanted to be, uh, given the opportunity to run it. I didn’t care really about ownership as much as I wanted to, to, to build on what he had created. Um, but when I saw it, I’m like, oh, I, uh, I can’t accept this, this, it was a gift. I mean, technically buy, sell, blah, blah, blah but it was a gift, like, yeah. Um, so yeah, I don’t know what, why I did that other than to say, um, very early in my life I decided who I wanted to become, and anything in my life that doesn’t line up with that, um, I tend to yield to what I say I want to be. So, yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 11:40
Wow. That’s for a 30-year-old, I, that’s, that’s pretty incredible, Jeff. Um…
JEFF KRAAS 11:44
I have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. No idea where that came from.
MARK WRIGHT 11:47
Um, a turning point for Kaas Tailored came in the late 1990s. Uh, uh, this is what I’ve heard and read. One of your biggest clients ordered all of its suppliers to quote-unquote go lean. So, in a sense, you were forced to restructure your entire company overnight. So, you end up going to Japan to study Toyota? Take, take us back to that time and what was that, what was that like? That must have been kind of an earth-shattering moment for Kaas tailored.
JEFF KAAS 12:14
Oh yeah, yeah. It was scary. So, I think we can say the name of the company. Um, so it was, it was Boeing, and it was a gift. They, they really did and I, uh, later in life got to meet some of the people who made that decision at Boeing, and the intention was really we, Boeing, we need to be able to collaborate differently with our suppliers and we, Boeing, have discovered that working in flow would be much more productive for us, and so, they came out with a program and said, hey, we need everybody to get on board learning this, and they provided free training for us and, uh, a few other things. Um, ultimately it got distorted by the chase for a cost reduction, but in the very early days it was a blessing. So, um, one of the first things we did is we saw this coming, and we said, okay, um, let’s learn it because we weren’t gonna get the consultants in the early days since we were a tiny supplier. Um, and we didn’t really have confidence that the, the trainers that would come to us would be top-tier trainers. We thought they might be the second or third generation of teachers. So anyhow, we, uh, we started learning about it and our consultants came in, they’re like, later they’d say, it was really hard we came in and like, your structure was actually set up more like Toyota than most companies are. My dad had done a good job kind of, and uh, so, uh, I begged them to take me to Japan. Uh, and um, and partly because okay, it was really hard to believe higher quality, you could do that. Lower cost, yeah, sorry, shorter lead tide, more innovation, more learning, more joy, more resiliency. So, as they started stacking up all the benefits of this, my bullshit meter just went off too, too loud. So, uh, and I, my dad’s as well, so I used to say, hey, please show me, take me, I wanna see it and I don’t wanna just see Toyota, I wanna see other people trying to do this there, and they graciously, uh, organize a trip and um, yeah, day one, I think it was just like, maybe the second tour my dad’s like, yeah, dummy, this is what, this is what I’ve been trying to teach you all along. So, it was a gift of, yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 14:16
So, Jeff, tell me, you know, Toyota production. So, you know, it’s, that’s been translated as just lean manufacturing and my understanding of lean. Um, I have a brother who’s in aerospace manufacturing and he was in, on a lean team at Boeing, and it’s really a cool system in terms of, of, of efficiencies and just eliminating every single waste that you can, but I take it the Toyota system was way more than just lean manufacturing. Tell, tell me about, what did that system teach you about the value of employees and how you treat employees?
JEFF KAAS 14:46
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great, uh, insight, I think, and it took us a while to understand, um, when you’re there, you’ll hear the leaders say, um, I know you’re here to study flow or eliminating waste, but it’s really about growing people. It’s a growing people system or a thinking people system, and we just didn’t get it. Like, uh, uh, every, every tour there’d be somebody going, but I want the cost reduction. I want the money, I want, you know, and so, um, and in fact I think the person who coined lean manufacturing might be Mr. Womack. I’m not sure, Dr. Womack, um, it was really good marketing because the people with power in business usually are the people who control the money and it got attention. So, for that, I’m really grateful. Uh, lean thinking, uh, I think was one of the books that did that but that was never what we heard at Toyota. Never once or any of those companies. Not one time did I ever hear them say, lean that word even. It was always about improvement in kaizen and inspiring. So, it took me several trips to go, oh, you’re not just marketing, like this is actually the thing. You’re growing people, the byproduct is you get quality costs, lead time, the money stuff. Um, and so it, it became a clear, uh, maybe yeah, five or six trips in that, um, they were about growing people and letting work be the, the method of growing people, which became super inspiring to me.
MARK WRIGHT 16:05
Hmm. So, when did this turn into a culture shift at cost? Because when you say growing people, I’m, I’m sort of flashing back to earlier parts of my career where I hear a manager say, hey, we’re gonna send John to a, a seminar in, uh, Atlanta and sort of that’s, that’s growing John, and, and he’ll wanna stay because we sent him to that seminar. Um, I’m, I’m, I’m think, I’m hearing from you that it’s, it’s, uh, uh, much deeper than that. So, so help me understand what it really means to grow an employee.
JEFF KAAS 16:36
Yeah. So that’s a, I’m, I’m glad you, that’s a great example. So, um, when we say, um, move with flow, the principles we use are known to show truth. Like, do we know the laws of nature? Do we a little, do it a little bit at a time and do we do it to the poll of the future of the pull of something we desire? So, truth bit and pull. So, sending somebody to a seminar is a batch and frankly, it’s pretty normal to hear people say, I went to a seminar and I, I thought it was great and then, but I, I didn’t apply it when I got back to work. So, there’s a lot of science around how human beings actually learn and grow, and I can tell you it’s not in a batch. It’s a little bit every day like kids learn. So, uh, so, uh, I guess as it relates to the culture shift for us, it was, uh, when I started to understand the principles, the underlying thinking, we chose to invite people for tours into our factory. Uh, 15 years ago maybe, and at some point, we counted over 40,000 guests had been through our factory. Our original intent was, let’s find out what’s not true about this system. So, then we could tell the whole world we found the problem, but it is true sometimes, um, about two years in, we’re like, we haven’t found any holes. In fact, it’s more true than we thought. Um, and so as, as we gained the courage, to test and do, and test and do and allow people to come in, um, more than one time over a period of years. We didn’t wanna be hypocrites, so it caused us to be learning from a variety of inputs all the time, constantly having to defend or consider alternatives from a variety of industries. At some point realized, oh, it’s always true. We, we can’t prove this crap wrong. It’s always true. So, once we started to know it’s always true, then it wasn’t courageous, it wasn’t leadership, it was just, oh, it’s something true let’s, let’s just follow it, let’s just do it, and that’s, I think when we really started to, to to move forward and started looking at other science, other experiences, other tools to say what causes truth to be known? Visual management. What causes little bits? Oh, the internet is a bit, a phone call is batch. Oh, that’s different. Um, it started infecting everything that we do, and certainly teaching the world about it was part of the way that we were inspired to keep going. I’m not sure if that helps answer your question.
MARK WRIGHT 18:51
It does, it does and, and help me understand, like on a day-to-day basis, um, you know, how you, how you interact with employees, how much autonomy you give them over the process of making stuff. Um, let’s drill down a little bit deeper on, on just what that means. Cause like, I, I come from a farming background and when you want a plant to grow, you don’t force it to do anything. You just create conditions that allow it to grow. Like the right soil and you know, irrigation and, you know, all that stuff.
JEFF KAAS 19:21
Really great. So, we, in order to have that conversation and farming’s a great example where we can say, look, um, a human being can take credit for stirring the dirt, making sure the dirt is in great condition. Um, we can even, uh, think about the location, uh, of the crop where we wanna put it, and we can certainly put the seed in the ground, but we don’t make it grow. So, uh, we can put water and, and manure on it, but there’s this part that we control, part we don’t control. Um, in the manufacturing process, there are more things that are controllable, and by law, because we do things for airplanes, it’s really important that we all do it the same way. So, if three of us are gonna plant a garden that we’re going to eat out of, to me it makes sense that we communicate and collaborate to make sure that we know where the beans are going and where the squash is going, where the corn is going to make sure there’s cross-pollination and that we have, you know, yummy meals at the end of the year. So, the more people that you involve in, uh, any form of collaboration, the greater the need for standardization to ba, basically say, let’s make sure we do it the same way so that the experiment we’re running on this crop cycle we can learn from. Cause if we all do it differently, when we don’t have food at the end of the year, we don’t know anything. So, the further away you get from actual seed in the dirt, the, uh, the feedback mechanisms are longer. So, when we plant seed in the dirt and the weather turns up and there isn’t something sprouting, we might even be able to rescue that crop that year because a feedback loop is super tight, but we’re actually planning the crops for the next decade. Um, there’s, uh, a different set of activities, so the freedom to make decisions is far greater. So, uh, if you’re running in our factory and you’re doing, you’re building something, um, the law is we make it exactly the same way because we’re pulling things for airplanes. When we’re growing people, um, the context of every culture, every ethnicity, but also every subculture is radically different. So, the standard for that is show love and respect. It’s much more open and you might show love and respect different than I do, but if you don’t show love and respect, we can agree that doesn’t fit here. So, so it really depends on the context of the work as to how much freedom you have. Um, one of the things that we did very early in life is we just we’re willing to say, this is what we’re all about. We’re about shining light to our community, and if you don’t like that, it’s okay, cause it sounds kind of crazy to me when you tell me that. But you can’t be here if you’re not cool with growing people and shining light, and when we say growing people, it’s not about retention, it’s about equipping and contending and sending, and that’s a really different way of viewing the idea of growing people. We don’t build furniture and keep it. We build furniture and send it. Um, we wanna grow people so that they’re a better version of themselves, so that they’re more able to contend for their own families, contend for our communities, and, and we as a company want to contend for their talent to say we, we gotta be your best option, but I really hate the word retaining and so most of the equipping in the past has been, oh, give them a carrot so they feel good about learning a little something. Give ’em a little raise so they stay, give them some golden handcuffs so that, that we, we are radically rethinking what it means to equip and, and have them fit into that culture.
MARK WRIGHT 22:35
Wow. That’s, that is so, that is so profound because at the end of the day, people at work want to feel valued and want to feel like the work that they’re doing has relevance and value and, right?
JEFF KAAS 22:48
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think we all do. I think that’s, uh, you know, we, we tour people and we hear what’s like, what it’s really, what is it really like to work in America today? Um, as judged by what your family might hear you say, it’s, it’s, it’s heartbreaking. It’s really heartbreaking because that is not what I experienced on the farm with my grandparents. It was all joy. We get to go stir the dirt. We’re planting beans, we’re gonna have some good beans, but it’s gonna be a while. Hey, while we’re out here, we’re gonna pick some raspberries because they’re starting to like work. Um, ought to be, my worldview is it should feel like your hobby, and we look at what prevents it from feeling like hobby, that’s the area that we wanna focus our attention, and that’s why we do consulting. It’s like, hey, if it doesn’t feel like hobby, you’re actually doing it wrong, and, um, Toyota thankfully identified the seven waste and you can kind of go, oh, part of the reason that you’re not enjoying your work is it’s littered with this pollution. Um, and frankly, organizations that choose to embrace this, um, when they embrace it with the idea, we’re gonna love our neighbor and we’re gonna serve our customers really well, and we’re gonna pursue work that’s joyful. The money will come. Most organizations that have embraced this and why it gets kind of jacked up is they’re embracing it as a cost reduction efficiency thing. The, the, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a stupid thing, it’s like going skiing to count the number of runs versus the thrill of a turn, and so, uh, so this is, I think, where the opportunity is for the podcast that you guys are doing to actually will say, have your focus be on loving our communities and creating value, and let the, the harvest be what the harvest is, and don’t judge your value on the harvest all the time. Judge it on your service to community, and, and that’s really, uh, a change for, for us to even be more and more pure about that, more and more true about it but you can’t serve God and money. So, like loving your neighbor, or chase money, you’re gonna be somebody’s bitch. So which one do you wanna be? And, and in my view, I’d much rather die on the cross loving my neighbor than have another dollar.
MARK WRIGHT 24:55
Wow, um, Jeff, this is great, great stuff. Um, I wanna talk about your consulting business in just a sec, but first I had a chance to tour your factory. Um, it is wide open. It’s clean, there are plants all over the place. Um, and then there are also plastic cups, green, yellow, and red plastic cups above everyone’s workstation and I’d love for you to tell our listeners what that’s about and how it fits into the business.
JEFF KAAS 25:23
Yeah. Yeah, it was fun to have you there. So, the whole idea is if we know the truth, we know the truth sets us free from being a slave to this waste. So, um, if you’re struggling with getting your work done, you can change your beer cup and get help right away. Um, the, the, the camera’s recording video or just so that we know not recording, showing different locations are designed to connect people to each other so that we know the truth, but also that we can see our coworkers are, are working on stuff. So, as you look through the lens of our business, you can kind of say, okay, do they believe in truth? Do they believe in working a little bit at a time to a pull signal? All those tools are designed so that, um, I can do my job and if I have trouble, I can get help, and, and that’s what the beer cups initially started to be was just hey, green means you’re good, don’t need help. Uh, yellow means I’m in a little bit of trouble, but I know it, and red means I’m screwed, and I need some help, and that the idea is just don’t be alone. Don’t, don’t be stuck.
MARK WRIGHT 26:20
And, and that’s like a, it’s an automatic form of communication that you don’t have to go ask, how’s your day going? You can look up and say, oh man, Jeff, Jeff’s got a red cup over his station. I better go see what’s going on.
JEFF KAAS 26:32
Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and also it’s, it’s, uh, very empowering for me. If I, if I need some alone time, I can go red and focus. So, um, the other blessing that we have is we have many languages that are, uh, spoken at cost. Um, so, um, they all drive to get to, to our place, and every next generation of refugees or immigrants to America, at some level, they know green, yellow, red, uh, uh, so we just basically harness something they already know. Um, the ideal state is I know the truth without having to talk to somebody about it. So, I can focus on checking in on them as a human being rather than spending all of our time in a meeting to know the status of a chair, like who cares. Um, so we try to make the truth known on all the things that are basically easy to know, which hopefully allows time for community to know each other as, as human beings.
MARK WRIGHT 27:24
So, you call your consulting business, just what you mentioned a bit ago, Truth Bit Pull, and, uh, the day that I was at your, your, uh, factory, there was a big group taking a tour. You said you’ve hosted thousands and thousands of people from some of the biggest companies around. Um, it’s, uh, I’d love to know, Jeff, what the biggest takeaway is when somebody who has no idea what you guys are or do, comes in and gets the tour and gets, gets to drink some of the Kool-Aid. What, what is the, the most common takeaway that you see?
JEFF KAAS 27:55
Yeah, that’s a really great question. Um, so young people that come, they’re like, yeah, this totally makes sense. I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna live this way. People with a lot of authority or super handsome, um, or a lot of education, they, they tend to argue with it a lot. So, there’s something about the, and it’s like very consistent. Um, what we hope, um, that happens is that we’ve exposed them to the truth, and we are, uh, a seed that’s planted, uh, to think about maybe living differently. Um, the more authority a person ha authority, a person has, um, I think the greater level of conviction that we seek to, to provide is, uh, yeah. So, we hope the transformational moment is, oh, we actually could live differently and if you have authority in our organization, um, are you gonna prevent everybody in your organization from experiencing joy at work? And, and there are a lot of people who like literally walk outta here, uh, and are like, oh, the cost is too great. I’m, I’m not, I’m not gonna change, I’m not gonna take the risk. Occasionally, I’d say one out of every thousand leaders, if we take the people with authority, they’re like, oh shit, it’s me. I gotta, I gotta change, help me, and that’s really where the consultant consulting comes into play is, oh, a leader actually knows they have authority, knows that they can massively bless people and they don’t know how to do it. Wonderful. That’s a wonderful spot to be in. Um, yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 29:25
So, I’m guessing, those leaders where the light bulb goes off, one of their first questions is, okay, I’m gonna go back to my, my company, but what, what’s the first thing that I do? It’s, it’s gotta be a little bit overwhelming at first when you’re talking about transforming an entire way of doing business.
JEFF KAAS 29:42
Yeah. It’s great. Uh, that’s, um, so the first thing I wanted to know is today’s a new day. You learn something, stay in community with me like we don’t charge to be in community, right? So, um, I’m available all the time to help shepherd that person along the way to the point that they can decide whether or not they want to do something with information. So, a lot of times it’s just, hey, sit in it, reflect in it, and, uh, make, make time with me. I’ll spend 15 minutes a day with you for a few months. I’m at one company, we’ve been meeting 15 minutes a day for a year to help them understand how they might apply this. So, we’re available as a resource and there’s a lot of folks in our, our, our, our, our company, but also in our community that will spend time with you to go, if it’s true, should we do something. So, the really, the first is really allow that conviction, uh, to go from kind of, oh crap, to maybe O SH** to O F*** I gotta do something. So, it’s really build the conviction level because it, um, it’s likely that the structure of your organization, violates most of these principles and is causing most of these things. Um, so, uh, yeah, so it’s really just stay in community, talk through it. Um, uh, I’m meeting daily with people who are just starting the journey, and so the conversation is, tell me everything you know about anything. So, do you ski? Do you dance? Do you make music? Like, tell me everything you kind of know something about, and I’m just looking for, what do you already know that I can attach it to, to say you actually know this, like, and that is really, um, a huge part of this is people do know that work can feel good. They have a hobby, and so, they also know work could feel that way cause they’ve already experienced that at some point in their career. So, especially those with authorities, why would you allow any amount of money to come into your pocket without returning something of greater value, which is a culture where we can experience joy at work, and oh, by the way, the science says joyful people do much better work and they innovate better, right? So, there’s, you don’t need a genius to say, wouldn’t it be better if we did joyful work? Right? Even your dog would be wagging his tail, yeah, that one. Yeah, do that. Yeah. It’s so stupid.
MARK WRIGHT 31:52
Jeff, I want to ask you about, um, um, you know, as part of your enlightenment as a, as a business owner, you’ve learned a lot about planning for the future. Um, and your company spends a lot of time asking the question, who are we becoming? Um, when you, when you advise other companies about planning for the future, I mean, so many industries are simply reactive. Okay, what’s happening now? Can we get a new contract? Uh, you know, are we on schedule? But when it comes to planning for the future, and you ask that question, who are we becoming from a strategic standpoint? Help other business owners get their heads around what that looks like in terms of actually planning the process.
JEFF KAAS 32:33
Yeah, it’s a great, um, I, I didn’t know you picked up on that. That’s really cool. Uh, so, so whether you’re publicly held, privately held, um, doesn’t really matter if you’re uh, a sole proprietor. The, the essential question of how do we align today’s work with where we’re going is who, who are we becoming? Not what are we doing or how are we doing it? It’s what is our identity? And I usually will say, hey, it’s 10 years from now and you’re really like, you can’t believe how awesome things are, describe it to me. Um, and to see if they have any kind of passion for it. Um, to be honest, some, some businesses are just bought and sold like laundry. They’re not intended to create anything great. So that’s one of the ways I screen out people that I wanna spend time with. Um, if, if a, a media station is just bought so it can be sold to make money, that’s not a place for me to spend time. Uh uh, a media station has a responsibility to get truth out to the world so that we can be a community. Yeah. So, if, if an airplane company is all about the bottom line, not about connecting families and doing it in an ecologically friendly way. You know, these are questions of, of identity of our DNA. So, so I always start there to say, okay, do you actually want to become something better than, than just a, a, a financial entity? And, and if the answer is yes, then we can start saying, okay, what keeps us from getting there? And, uh, then gets us on the journey of, okay, for sure you can get there, but you gotta do it with people if you’re a bigger organization and you gotta be smart enough to explain to your shareholders why it’s in their interest. Um, and there are companies who have gone to their shareholders and say, uh, a short-term play with us is a waste of your money. Um, we’re going here, this is who we’re becoming. Um, and in the end of that, you’ll have to decide whether or not that’s a good investment for you, and there are some companies who have basically said, uh, you know, the day traders not a good investment, watch us in 10 years. There’s evidence that that works. So, we have to be smart enough to be able to look at these principles and say, how does this honor the intent of shareholders or the intent of the organization who are becoming, and if it doesn’t, we should just, you know, just slash and, you know, cut it and, you know, be honest about it. I always ask a business owner, do you own it as a mission or to make money? And if it’s to make money, then like, fine, who cares? That’s great, it’s not wrong. Make a living, screw everybody. Might as well be good at it, tell everybody yeah, yeah. But the, the worst, or they act like it’s a mission, and then, you know, they, they, they cheat us on their new points for their, their drinks or coffees or like, right? So please just be honest. Yeah. It’s about the, if it’s about the, the dollar, then just do that. It’s all good, hey. Yeah. So that’s really, it’s who are you becoming. I’m trying to get to, to the DNA of our identity and ultimately you don’t need to tell a goose where to shit or where to eat, cause it, it knows its identity in the same way human beings that are on mission. Uh, fighting a war, uh, fighting an epidemic. They don’t need to be told we need to save and do and, and move. They just need to be e enabled, uh, create the environment so they can run like crazy to get there. And yeah, so I’m, I’m too old to spend time with people that are gonna fake it.
MARK WRIGHT 35:46
Hmmm. A big part of, you know, planning the future of a company, I would guess is who you hire. Every new person that you bring into your company has the ability to become the DNA of that company, right? Um, you, you’ve said you’d rather hire a music major than a business major. Um, tell me why.
JEFF KAAS 36:02
It’s kind of sad but true. Here’s the deal, a music major has lived in truth. They understand systems thinking. They understand that the music the audience hears is what many men and women together did. Um, it reflects the person writing the score, it reflects the personality of the conductor and the musicians, and it’s all about flow, and, uh, almost everybody in an audience has felt the moment where flow occurred and our bodies more than our brains, maybe even. Uh, and so what I love about music is you just can’t BS it, you know? Uh, live music’s particularly, uh, uh, same with drama. You know, if you’ve got a drama major and you’ve produced, you’ve written, you’ve casted, you’ve directed, you’ve recorded, you’ve, uh, played the parts, and you’ve dealt with, you know, not having backups on a day you’ve learned something that’s radically different than going to class and studying what did big company number five do to make sure the shareholders had a bunch of money? So, yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 37:06
Okay. Jeff, I wanna wind things, uh, wind things down a little bit. I want to ask you, um, uh, is your dad still living? Is he still with us?
JEFF KAAS 37:13
Yeah. Still alive? Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 37:14
And, and what, what, what does he think about what you’ve created at Kaas Tailored?
JEFF KAAS 37:19
Yeah. Uh, Kaas Tailored is his baby. I’m, I’m just, I’m just a, a, a kid kind of. So, yeah, he’s a, he’s a really proud, uh, thankful, grateful guy. Um, you know, when he retired, um, he, he literally walked out the door and, and, and let me sink or swim. Um, he was available as a resource, um, and when tough times were tough, he’s the only guy I could call. Um, yeah, super proud. Like he walks in and, yeah, it’s, uh, very, um, fulfilling and shocking to him. Uh, to see what we do. Um, and, um, of course he notices the most important things, the faces, the, the decisions, the, the mission. Um, yeah. So, uh, yeah, it’s really fun to have him see what he created, really he created it. I, I just polished it a little bit.
MARK WRIGHT 38:08
And now your kids are working with you too, right?
JEFF KAAS 38:11
Yeah, two of ’em, actually, all four of ’em did. But, uh, daughters found, uh, other places to use their gifting, which is way better for them in society, but, uh, yeah, two boys working here and, uh, super fun. A few other family members as well.
MARK WRIGHT 38:24
Yeah, so I guess in, in wrapping this up, Jeff, it, it, it really kind of strikes me that there’s no separation between your work, life, and your personal life. There’s one, there’s one guy named Jeff Kaas and, uh, so I’d like to wrap things up with a final question, and that is what, what do you hope your legacy is when all is said and done?
JEFF KAAS 38:46
Whew. Dang it, Mark. That’s a tough one. Uh, whew. Yeah. Um, I, I’m, I’m pretty comfortable being a, being a seed plant and trusting that there’ll be a harvest that I never get to know about. Um, for those that I’m, um, that know me, I hope they feel loved. I think that’s, uh, you know, that, uh, I would be willing to speak truth to them in a way if they run a business to say, I, I love you enough to tell you, you can do better. Um, if it’s a, a kid that I coach soccer, that when they get to the time when they’re thinking about suicide that they call me, and that happens. So, shoot ha-ha. Yeah, that, that, that, if, if there’s any, any, any memories of me, it would be that I, uh, worked hard to love.
MARK WRIGHT 39:47
Wow. Jeff Kaas this has been such an honor, a pleasure to talk with you. Um, in the show notes, we’ll put, uh, how to connect with you and, and, uh, connect with Kaas Tailored, but I’m just, uh, so honored that you’ve spent time with us and even more honored that you are showing up in the workplace in a way that I think is absolutely inspiring. So, thank you.
JEFF KAAS 40:08
Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for your time.
MARK WRIGHT 40:10
Big thanks to Jeff Kaas for that interview. What an amazing business leader. As Jeff mentioned, he has opened up his factory and hosted tens of thousands of people on tours, and he’s now teaching business leaders through his consulting company called Truth Bit Pull. I’d love to hear from you. Does your company value its employees? If you’re a business leader or an employee who’s seen great examples you’d like to share, I’d love to hear from you. You can email me at mark@beatsworking.show. That’s mark@beatsworking.show. I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday, and if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and Webb editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributor’s Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING where we are winning the game of work.
