Since the late 1990s, Dr. Emily Cooper has dedicated her life to treating people with Metabolic Syndrome – an extreme form of metabolic dysfunction that can lead to diabetes, heart attack, and stroke.
She considers it a calling, and her story is fascinating. When Dr. Cooper started working with patients with eating disorders, she discovered their metabolic signals were similar to those of her patients with obesity. In both patients with anorexia and obesity, the brain was telling the body, “We’re starving,” and directing it to store calories as fat. How could that be? The answer is Metabolic Dysfunction.
And so began Dr. Cooper’s journey as one of the nation’s leading metabolic clinicians. In this episode, she shares some of what she’s learned with me, including one of the leading causes of Metabolic Dysfunction (dieting and depriving the body of calories), how to know if you have it, and what can be done to treat it. We also discuss popular weight loss myths and misconceptions like “carbs are bad.”
The backdrop to Dr. Cooper’s journey is a medical establishment that often still promotes a “calories in = calories out” message that tends to imply that excess weight is somehow the patient’s fault.
Dr. Cooper’s mission is growing more critical each year. Right now, 4 in 10 Americans are pre-diabetic, and 90 percent don’t know it. Over 37 million Americans have full-blown diabetes, and 1 in 5 don’t know it. Her story is one of persistence, innovation, and advocating for those who need help – a true example of redeeming work.
Resources from the episode:
- Learn more about Dr. Cooper and the work she does on her website.
- Dr. Cooper’s nonprofit, the Diabesity Research Institute, is on a mission to increase access to effective, science-based medical care for those suffering from or at risk for diabesity. Learn more about them here.
- Connect with Dr. Cooper on LinkedIn.
Share Article on Social Media
Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: Dr. Emily Cooper and Mark Wright
DR. EMILY COOPER 00:00
In your case, you did have those, those things that you, those conditions that you described of the elevated blood pressure, the elevated glucose, prediabetes, and you had the cholesterol, uh, imbalances as well. And so that triad is really the definition of metabolic syndrome and why we try to group it together as a syndrome is to kind of remind the practitioners really and the patients that these things are connected. They’re not separate issues. So, taking a blood pressure medicine is not really going to be enough to get to the root of the problem. Same thing with taking a cholesterol medicine may not be. And, um, so what we want to do is look for the deeper underlying metabolic dysfunction that’s, that’s causing that condition.
MARK WRIGHT 00:52
This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work – the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to BEATS WORKING – winning the game of work. On the show this week, the science of why we get fat. I don’t know about you, but everywhere I turn these days, especially on social media, someone is pushing a plan to lose weight. They’re everywhere. And everyone says they have the answer, but how many of those plans are actually based on science? My guest this week is Seattle doctor Emily Cooper. For decades, she has studied and treated the metabolic causes of diabetes, obesity, and infertility. She’s one of the nation’s leading experts on diagnosing and treating metabolic syndrome. She considers it her calling, and her story is simply fascinating. When Dr. Cooper started working with patients with eating disorders, she discovered their metabolic signals were similar to her patients with obesity. In both patients with anorexia and obesity, the brain was telling the body the same thing. We’re starving and store calories as fat. So how could that be? The answer is metabolic dysfunction. In this episode, we learn about metabolic syndrome and that one of the leading causes of metabolic dysfunction is dieting, depriving the body of calories. You see, every time you diet, your brain remembers it. And that can cause the body to store more calories after every diet that you’re on. We also talk about popular weight loss myths and misconceptions, like carbs are bad. Dr. Cooper says the science is clear. Carbs are absolutely necessary for good health. It’s also important to understand the backdrop to Dr. Cooper’s journey, is a medical establishment that often still promotes a calories in, calories out message, that kind of implies excess weight is somehow still the patient’s fault. So why is all this important? Well, it’s not just about weight. It’s about health. Right now, 4 in 10 Americans are pre diabetic, and 90 percent don’t know it. 37 million Americans have full blown diabetes, and 1 in 5 doesn’t know it. Full disclosure, I have metabolic syndrome, and Emily Cooper is my doctor. All right, here we go. Here’s to science, and to understanding the truth about why we get fat. Dr. Emily Cooper, welcome to the BEATS WORKING podcast. It’s so great to have you here.
DR. EMILY COOPER 03:41
Thanks so much for inviting me, Mark.
MARK WRIGHT 03:43
So, I feel like we’re in a doctor patient session because you know full disclosure. You’re, you’re my doc been we’ve had a doctor patient relationship for the past probably 10ish years and so I feel like I’m just sitting down with an old friend, which you are. So, um, so let’s talk about the reason that I wanted to have you on the podcast is, you know, our lens really is showcasing people who are doing good through their work. And I think the path that you’ve taken as a medical doctor is really interesting. It’s not conventional, um, by, by standard terms, but you’re also doing an immense amount of good by what you’ve chosen to focus on, and that is metabolic syndrome, which is, is how we connected back, back in the day. So let’s, let’s kind of give people an overview. If they don’t know anything about Dr. Emily Cooper from Seattle Performance Medicine, um, tell us what type of medicine you practice and, and I’d love also to know why, why you chose it.
DR. EMILY COOPER 04:44
Thanks, Mark. Well, you know, I, I specialize in the underlying causes, the metabolic causes of diabetes, obesity, and infertility. And that’s really what I’m the most focused on right now. And I got into it because I was very motivated actually by my grandma, who was a doctor. She graduated in, I think it was 1914 from NYU med school. And she was a big proponent of preventive medicine. And so, she inspired me to really look into closer and closer at preventive medicine. And even before going to med school, that’s what I was interested in. And then as I got into preventive medicine, I started to realize the metabolism is the most powerful kind of route to preventing diseases. And so that’s how I got into that.
MARK WRIGHT 05:36
I feel like, you know, you’re telling the story about your grandmother in 1914, having a progressive outlook on medicine, which I’m sure that and the fact that just that she was a female in that industry at that time was, was just amazing, right?
DR. EMILY COOPER 05:52
It really was. And she did have a progressive outlook. She, she was worried about antibiotic resistance even way back in the 1960s. And we have a real problem with that now. So, when we were kids, we weren’t allowed to go on antibiotics unless we really needed them. And, uh, yeah, she was, she was very progressive, but really believed that at the time, she believed you could pretty much prevent disease by a few different things. You know, eating your fruits and vegetables, staying active, and washing your hands. And that was really her mantra. And uh, as I learned more about medicine and preventive medicine, I learned there’s more to it really than that.
MARK WRIGHT 06:34
But that’s not a bad start for that, for that era. I mean, we had doctors doing cigarette commercials up until the early 1960s.
DR. EMILY COOPER 06:44
That’s so true.
MARK WRIGHT 06:45
Um, so let’s talk about your specialty and that’s metabolic syndrome. Can you give us a definition of what metabolic syndrome is for just the average person?
DR. EMILY COOPER 06:54
Sure. Metabolic syndrome is a high-risk form of metabolic dysfunction, and we might need to back up. What’s metabolic dysfunction? Um, but the metabolism in general is regulated by a feedback loop where messages are transmitted from the body to the brain and the brain takes all that in and determines whether the body is at risk of famine or if everything’s good to go and okay to burn fuel and then it sends its impression back to the body through other, uh, hormone messengers primarily. And so that feedback loop just continues and continues. Metabolic syndrome is a form of dysfunction that can occur within that feedback loop that has a very high risk of progressing to increased risk of heart attacks, strokes, and type 2 diabetes.
MARK WRIGHT 07:46
Wow, that’s super interesting. So, I’m guessing back in the day that this feedback loop was, was really instrumental in just keeping human beings alive, right?
DR. EMILY COOPER 07:55
Absolutely. I mean, I don’t think we’d be here if it wasn’t for that feedback loop. And it’s not just us, it’s, it’s all living organisms utilize a feedback loop similar to that. Um, and. It’s pretty fascinating, but it does keep us alive at times of famine. It’s, it’s like a dimmer switch on your lights. If you need to conserve energy, you can turn the dial down and you can still see, but not as well as you did before. And then at times where there’s an abundance, you can just turn it back up and, and shine the lights brighter. And that’s really the way that our, our body works to adapt to our environment.
MARK WRIGHT 08:34
That’s so crazy because when you think about the demands that are put on the human body, especially back in the day when we had to chase our food and catch it, right? That there were times when we would maybe run for an entire day and then maybe rest for an entire day or two. Um, and it’s such a dynamic and fluid situation that that feedback loop must be extremely sophisticated to work properly, right?
DR. EMILY COOPER 09:00
It is. And it’s interesting you bring up that example, because, um, in that type of situation, when we’re starving for those days without food, how do we actually then go and run and try to find food? How do we have the energy? Well, it’s because that feedback loop. It turns the dial down, conserves energy, and part of that conservation involves production of endorphins. Um, production of endorphins, which the body’s painkillers. So, it makes us not experience the pain of starvation and the discomfort of starvation. So um, having that system in place is what allows us to then go run for food. And the endorphins also kind of tone down our hunger signals.
MARK WRIGHT 09:47
Wow, that’s fascinating. Um, I, I’d love to talk, you know, a little bit about my situation because I think, I think it would illuminate just sort of what metabolic syndrome is and, and you know, at least give people an idea of how it kind of manifests or how it can manifest itself in our lives. And I think we first met when you were invited. And, uh, I think my co-anchor Joyce on King 5 TV in Seattle, we were going to do this Get Fit segment. We were going to bring a doctor in and meet with the doctor and come up with ways to lose 10 or 15 pounds and kind of get healthier, all of us. And um, so we somehow connected with you, which was really fortunate. Um, but what we quickly learned is that you weren’t just like this doctor would be like, uh, yeah, why don’t you eat better and, and walk a little more and come back and see me in two weeks. It was, it was, we were super impressed by how sophisticated the process was of you evaluating our health. And long story short, you, you came to me and said, you know, I’m pretty sure that you’re suffering from metabolic syndrome. And, and so when I look back to what I was like at that point, I was 50 pounds heavier. I had, uh, elevated blood sugar levels, elevated cholesterol, um, high blood pressure. Um, I was not in very good shape and my family doc at the time, and I’m not, I’m not going to say this to disparage him, but, but he, he was like, yeah, you got to just eat a little better, get more exercise and, and it just didn’t work. And I, and I think the other thing too, is being on the morning show schedule, you know, my body was constantly under stress and not getting enough sleep. And so that, I think that. You know, as you’ve told me over the years had played, played into that but, but when we talk about how metabolic syndrome manifests itself, you told me that I was pre-diabetic so that my, my, my metabolism was whacked out and the way that my body was turning food or trying to turn food into energy was really messed up and it was storing fat and so what was going on in me at the time that that told sort of told you that this is broken.
DR. EMILY COOPER 11:58
Yes. Well, and you actually, yes, your weight was a little bit, it was elevated, but you’re a tall man. And so, you kind of wear it well. So, most doctors would have probably looked at you and thought, eh, you’re, you know, you’re pretty close to normal, um, and may not have done as in depth of a workup, um, because just kind of assuming that you were okay. Um, but once we started to look and it’s true, that little, uh, you know, meet your goals in six weeks, get fit program on King 5 turned into about almost a two year, um, you know, episodes, I think a couple, we did over a hundred something episodes on metabolism leading out of that, just because of what we found at first and, and all of the participants, but in your case, you did have those, those things that you, those conditions that you described of the elevated blood pressure, the elevated glucose prediabetes, and you had the cholesterol uh, imbalances as well. And so that triad is really the definition of metabolic syndrome. And why we try to group it together as a syndrome is to kind of remind the practitioners, really, and the patients that these things are connected. They’re not separate issues. So, taking a blood pressure medicine is not really going to be enough to get to the root of the problem. Same thing with taking a cholesterol medicine may not be. And, um, so what we want to do is look for the deeper underlying metabolic dysfunction that’s, that’s causing that condition.
MARK WRIGHT 13:35
Yeah, and so in my case, um, my body was producing, I’m guessing too much insulin, which is the hormone that takes food energy into the muscles for use. It was, I was getting a spike in insulin. It was storing those calories as fat and, uh, my blood sugar would crash, and I was sleepy and tired even after I ate, and it was just a complete mess. And, um, so that’s just one of the ways that metabolic syndrome manifests itself. And through a series of medications and doing labs, I should, I should say that the model is, you know, I come in every four months for extensive lab work. Um, so, uh, your technicians draw blood. I have a meal. They take more blood 30, 60, 90 minutes afterward to see how my body is dealing with the food. And, and in a series of years, it wasn’t overnight, but in over years, you’ve corrected that so, I went to my family doc the other day for it. I broke a toe, but, but they took my blood pressure there and they’re like, yeah, your blood pressure is 102 over 62. I was like, really? It has never been low. So, I have a lot a lot to, to say in terms of my gratitude for you. My case, though, Emily, is just such, um, it’s just one example of how many different ways metabolic syndrome can impact people. So, like, and even Olympic athletes, you’ve treated Olympic athletes who have metabolic syndrome. What does it look like, say, in someone who’s super fit like that?
DR. EMILY COOPER 15:09
Yeah, you know, it can look the exact same way. And we often think that just because somebody’s body size is elevated that they’re the ones that are affected. And it is true that the higher weight is associated with a higher incidence of metabolic syndrome, but up to 25 percent of normal weight people also have metabolic syndrome, and that does include many athletes and people that you wouldn’t think have it. And so, we always say you cannot tell what’s going on inside from what you see on the outside when it comes to the body. You can have a very high weight and not have metabolic syndrome. You can have perfect cholesterol, no elevated glucose, no elevated blood pressure, and no fat around your organs. Even at a very high weight, even 100 pounds over what’s considered normal weight. So um, not, you know, you’d have no way to really know until you put people under the microscope and find out what’s going on. Some of the clues come from genetics.
MARK WRIGHT 16:16
You know, I was talking about, you know, my family doc, and when I first started going to you, and then he asked, can I, can I see some of the labs that are being done? And so, I brought him, I think, one of the lab reports. And he looked at it, and this is a guy that’s, you know, was probably 30 years into his career in medicine. Um, and he looked at it, and he said, honestly, Mark, I, I don’t know what she’s doing, but if it’s working, and it looks like it is working, um, I would say keep, keep doing this. And, and what I think the journey that well, you’ve been on it longer than me, but I think what I’ve discovered about your journey is that this has been an uphill battle for a long time, to try to get conventional medicine to understand, um, you know, what metabolic syndrome is, because there’s a lot of judgment and a lot of, um, you know, judgment when it comes to people who have excess weight, take, tell me a little bit about that journey as, as a doctor and, and how come conventional medicine isn’t more informed on this topic?
DR. EMILY COOPER 17:23
That’s a great question because it really started way back when I was in my residency program, actually, um, before I was, you know, fully out of training. when the term metabolic syndrome started to be used. So that’s a long time ago now. That’s like three decades ago. And we were actually really excited about it. All of the new up and coming physicians were very excited about it because it was the first time that we realized that there’s identifiable metabolic dysfunction that’s going on that can lead to all of these chronic diseases. And yet there’s some, by detecting it early, there’s some ability to prevent those. And so there was kind of a lot of excitement about it at the time. So, and because I also had, you know, a very strong preventative lens that I was looking through. Due to just where I was coming from before I even started med school, I was very keyed into it. And, um, so I actually am pretty surprised that it wasn’t kind of embraced by mainstream medicine. Um, when you look back because looking at the enthusiasm at the time when this was first brought up, it used to be called syndrome X. That was the first, the first terminology. And then you’ll hear insulin resistance syndrome as another term, metabolic syndrome, but it’s recognized around the world at the World Health Organization recognizes it. And, um, there are different criteria, but you have to have several features kind of like you described. There are some other ones that can also meet the criteria, and I’m surprised that it hasn’t been embraced. But I think it does go back to what you were saying about the judgment that we place on people and in certain types of diseases, we tend to have a implicit bias within our culture that’s saying that this type of disease is This is the patient’s fault. This is something the patient has control over, versus something like if you break, you broke your toe. I don’t think your doctor told you, okay, you should eat this way and exercise that way. Well, it’s on you to fix it.
MARK WRIGHT 19:45
Yeah. But when we look at, uh, I mean, you’ve treated patients who were really, really obese who are eating almost nothing. Right? So, give us an example of like, how is that possible? Because let’s talk about, you know, this, this concept of calories in, calories out, really is, has been the conventional thinking in medicine for a long time. Tell me why that’s not true.
DR. EMILY COOPER 20:10
Yeah. Well, and that is, um, something that I learned, um, because it, it’s, you know, when you’re going to school and you’re hearing everything out in, you know, the social world, you’re hearing that it is all about calories in, calories out, and all you need to do is eat less, exercise more. And, um, in fact, what you find out is that, yes, you can measure the calories that you take in, but the amount that you’re actually burning is a very fluid and dynamic figure and it is based on that feedback loop where the body is communicating to the brain about the sense of nutritional security and the brain is transmitting back to the body what its overall perception is and so there can be a lot that goes wrong in that process and the perception of famine actually alters the metabolism as much as actual real famine, it turns out, it chemically alters the metabolism. So, um, it’s not as, you know, straightforward as, as people think.
MARK WRIGHT 21:22
So, when you’ve looked at really overweight people, like, when did it occur to you that it, it really wasn’t calories in, calories out?
DR. EMILY COOPER 21:31
This was really it took a little while for me to actually believe what I was seeing and this was about 20 years ago uh when I first started out really trying to get into the preventative medicine route I want I read that patients with type 2 diabetes could prevent a lot of complications if they could keep something up, which was called the VO2 max level, VO2 max is basically your aerobic fitness level. And there were studies that showed the higher their VO2 max became, the lower their morbidity and mortality. So, I decided, and this was, this was back in 1999, actually. Um, and I decided I wanted to performed the VO2 max test on all of my patients with diabetes every year to make sure that their aerobic fitness was improving. And the VO2 max, what it is, is you wear a mask and it’s measuring your exhaust, your metabolic exhaust. So, for everything we burn, there’s kind of a chemical, uh, uh, signature of oxygen and carbon dioxide that comes back out of our body. And so based on that, you can determine how many calories a person’s burning and what type of fuel they’re utilizing. And what they burn really reflects their muscles’ ability to turn fuel into energy, which is really your aerobic system. And that’s your aerobic capacity. So that’s why I got the equipment. And I remember the company, when I bought it, they told me I was I was the first really who had ever incorporated that type of equipment into a clinical practice for that purpose, where previously it was used at Olympic training centers to test athletes, um, to help them improve their fitness. So um, after doing some of this measurement, um, I did start to see a lot of athletes come in because they found out I had this equipment and they, they wanted to tweak their workouts to perform better. And I didn’t really see as many of the patients with diabetes that I wanted to. And I was, I was hoping to reach them, but wasn’t really able to, to reach as many. So, I took a detour with um, exercise physiology and really was fascinated with how metabolism affects that field and that ended up leading to seeing some patients with eating disorders and anorexia, anorexia nervosa, where they were literally metabolized. You know, underweight and, um, had lost a lot of their body mass. And I became very interested in the metabolic aspects of that also. And then along the way, I started to have people come seek my care that had elevated body weight. And I noticed that their metabolic hormone levels were very similar to those with the anorexia nervosa patients, the truly underweight people. So that’s where it started to make sense to me. Um, even back then, I thought that the problem, why people were saying that they were unable to keep the weight off even though they were doing this diet and they were exercising, I thought it was because no one had measured their metabolic rate. So, I took my fancy equipment and started to measure their metabolic rate, and I made these fancy spreadsheets that were very detailed with, okay, you need to eat this much, and you’re burning this when you exercise, so you need to put that much in, and it was really a game of calories in, calories out. And it seemed like it was working at first, and then it started to backfire. People that may have lost weight in the short term started to gain more weight and at rapid paces and end up higher than they were before they started, even though they were continuing on this plan. So started to convince me. And at that point I just flat out rejected the calories in calories out methodology and dug deeper into the metabolic hormones and neurotransmitters that really regulate things and other ways to approach this.
MARK WRIGHT 25:59
That’s really interesting because in someone who’s anorexic, their body literally is screaming we’re starving to the brain, right? So that feedback loop says we’re starving, so you better store every calorie that comes in or, or, you know, try, try not to, to, to waste it, right? And then you found that that same sort of metabolic hormonal signature was taking place in morbidly obese people.
DR. EMILY COOPER 26:25
Yes, exactly right. Exactly right. And you said it before that the calories, it doesn’t make sense. The amount that people can gain while eating such a small amount of food and even sometimes exercising so much. There is no equation that that could add up, um, with just what they’re eating. So, it isn’t just that they’re, um, storing some of the food and then burning just a little bit. It’s, it’s that it’s impairing all kinds of metabolic reactions throughout the body to enable them to store more body fat.
MARK WRIGHT 27:04
Let’s talk a little bit just about all the different things that are flying around out there right now in terms of intermittent fasting and keto and carbs are bad. Um, there just seems to be a lot of information that’s flying around that really isn’t based on science and it’s hard. It’s super hard for just the average person to sort through this. It seems like every in my Instagram feed, somebody has got something new that they’re trying to pitch uh, in terms of how we can lose weight. Let’s start with carbs though, Emily. Um, you, there’s a very common perception that carbs are bad. You’ll, you’ll hear people in a restaurant, oh, I’ll have the cheeseburger, but hold the bun. And I’m like, well, that’s, that’s the best part. But tell, so let’s talk about carbs first. What, what are carbs? What’s a good carb? What’s a bad carb? How did carbs get such a bad name?
DR. EMILY COOPER 27:57
Well, yeah, and carbs are carbohydrates and they are the primary fuel that our body needs to really, they’re our energy fuel. They’re a fuel that really gives us the most energy. And, um, they’re converted to glucose in our body and glucose is utilized by the brain so that we can actually do what we’re doing right now. Think, um, solve problems and also for our muscles to burn that fuel to go faster, jump higher. And so, carbohydrates are a really preferred fuel by the body because it’s a simple fuel that can be burned very easily. There are some capacities store carbs. Um, but not a lot, so we can store some carbohydrates in our liver to use for energy when we’re fasting like overnight while we’re asleep, but not very much there. There’s not a lot of storage there and we can store carbs in our muscle mass to use during our workouts and exercise training enables us to store more and more kind of like a battery that you can charge, um, to store more and more depending on what you’re doing physically. Um, and other than that, there’s really not the capacity to store much in the way of carbohydrates. So, we really need to get it from our diet. And, um, the idea of good versus bad carbs is a little bit murky. Um, we don’t really use that philosophy because there’s a place for all carbs in the diet, really, um, if you think of it as a fuel, there’s fast acting fuel, there’s medium acting fuel, there’s slow burning fuel. So, if you’re only consuming complex carbs throughout the day and high fiber complex carbs, it could make you sluggish, you know, you might need to put some more refined carbs in there to perk up your system. So, it’s, it varies from person to person and from what task they’re trying to accomplish. But there’s been carbophobia in our society for actually hundreds of years. So, it goes back to the 1700s when the low starch diets first became popular as far as I could see. Although, it may have gone back further. That’s as far as I could reliably trace it, um, through the scientific literature. But um, yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 30:19
That’s crazy. Hundreds of years. It’s kind of like fashion, you know. What comes around goes around. Yes. But, so, so you can unequivocally say that carbs, carbs are not bad. They’re absolutely necessary for good health.
DR. EMILY COOPER 30:33
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, whole grains are in the carbohydrate family, and whole grains help prevent cancer, heart disease, obesity, diabetes. So, these are foods that are rich in nutrients and really important for us.
MARK WRIGHT 30:47
Let’s talk about fasting., fasting, this intermittent fasting has become really, really you know in vogue right now because I think it it works for a while for for some people right and they have dramatic results but I don’t understand what’s happening. Do you, I mean, from a scientific standpoint, can you explain, how fasting affects the body?
DR. EMILY COOPER 31:08
Yeah, and this is another one uhm so the low starch diets date back to the 1700s and intermittent fasting to the 1800s. So, it first started in I believe it’s 1840, 1840 and as a you know a dietary strategy, but that’s why you can find science that backs it up, but as you said, it’s short term data. It’s, it’s really focused on short term data. And you can, no matter what the diet is, you can force your body to respond in the short term. Unless you’ve done this numerous times, and then it might, it might go on strike. But it’s really what happens over the long term. And what we see is, no matter what type of diet it is, we see weight regain and often ending up higher than the starting weight that the person started with. But prolonged periods of fasting, what they can do is they can really suppress hormones that are those beneficial positive signals that say, we’re secure, we have enough food supply, we weigh enough, so hormones such as you may have heard of leptin, which is a hormone from the body fat that’s important. But prolonged fasting can suppress those hormone signals and start to trick the brain into thinking that you’re actually in a real famine. And that’s the concern. And at the same time, that prolonged fasting can jack up other negative signals. We may have heard of ghrelin, which is a hormone from the stomach, nicknamed the hunger hormone. Um, but it’s a hormone that tells the body and the brain that we’re too hungry, we’re too hungry. And even if you don’t feel hungry, those chemical signals are, are happening. So once the brain starts to catch onto this, then it goes into its mode of protecting you from famine. And so, it sends these signals back that really impair your energy expenditure rates, your metabolic rate, to slow it down. And at the same time, it can actually really increase your appetite and suppress your sense of fullness as well once it starts to fight back. This is often referred to as It’s the biologic weight defense or biologic adaptation or metabolic adaptation that occurs after any type of restricting food groups or calories or, you know, prolonged periods of fasting or just even not fueling your exercise.
MARK WRIGHT 33:42
Wow. It, you know, this whole depriving of, of calories or fasting makes me think of, um, you know, I’m guessing a lot of your patients may be dieted as teenagers to fit into that prom dress or to fit into those, you know that baseball uniform or whatever, but tell me what, you know, tell me, tell me what you’ve seen in terms of your patients when it comes to dieting and the damage that that does, the permanent damage that that does.
DR. EMILY COOPER 34:12
You know, Mark, it can also be generational, so you can have generations of dieters, um, and it’s not just the moms because the, the father’s metabolic condition at the time of conception also affects the genes they pass to the, to their child. So, looking back at the family history and the values in the family going back, um, I have actually seen people who are, you know, related to Holocaust survivors or, um, people who’ve just had a lot of dieting in the family, um, from generation to generation. And that, I think, does also amplify our own genetic problems and cause even more trouble going back. But, but just in our own lifetimes, um, unfortunately, the research actually shows that even with one eight-week diet of the type that doctors prescribe, um, what’s called the medically supervised diets, even after just eight weeks of that, one year later, those metabolic hormones have not recovered. The ones that have suppressed, um, and they, you know, the beneficial ones can suppress quite a bit, anywhere from 25 to 40 percent of their level pre diet. And then you look at it a year later and it’s not returned anywhere near normal. So, it can create a lasting imprint of famine within the body. That’s very hard to fight. And that’s what people experience.
MARK WRIGHT 35:47
And the more times you diet. Does it get more pronounced?
DR. EMILY COOPER 35:50
Yes, absolutely it does. And that’s why we try to catch people, children and adolescents, and educate parents about, let’s not, you know, we have, they’re athletic, we need to make sure they’re fueling enough. They don’t need to be on a diet just because their BMI is elevated. Um, so we try to break that diet cycle. So that, now that child will grow up without that metabolic damage, diet damage, then they won’t pass it to their offspring, eventually.
MARK WRIGHT 36:22
I don’t think the average person, Emily, realizes how dangerous, um, dieting is to, to, I mean, if, if we’re especially doing it to our kids, and depriving them of calories that we could be setting them up for a lifetime of struggle, you know, when it comes to their metabolism, right?
DR. EMILY COOPER 36:40
Yes. And it’s not just, um, what we put them through, but they’re, they’ve done studies that show that the diet mentality in the household and focus on body image and dissatisfaction with body image also affects the children, even if they’re not dieting. Um, it affects their metabolism. And so, It, it’s very fascinating, but, you know, we’re meant to live in communities and groups and be aware of potential famine in the environment, and there are kind of subtle communications that take place that influence, you know, in the collective level, that influence us individually.
MARK WRIGHT 37:21
I want to ask one more sort of medical question, and then, then I want to get kind of back to, uh, how you came to, to where you are today. Um, you talked a little bit about, about fueling our exercise. Can you give us just some basic advice about, let’s say I’m just an average 59-year-old guy trying to stay in shape. Maybe I walk or jog, you know, two or three times a week, or maybe I lift weights a couple of times a week. What, what’s the best, uh, strategy for fueling our workout? What does that actually mean?
DR. EMILY COOPER 37:53
It’s really important to think about daily nutrition first. Um, I always tell people, if you don’t have your daily nutrition down, don’t start your exercise program yet. Just first focus on, are you eating consistently, on a frequent basis throughout the day, hitting all the food groups, at, you know, for day after day after day, in a good pattern, before you start to introduce, exercise, because if you introduce exercise without having that stability, there’s always that risk that you’re going to turn on the famine signaling. So first, make sure the daily nutrition is stable, and it’s not rocket science. We don’t have to be so overly focused on our food, actually. We just have to make sure that we’re including starches, proteins, fats, and your fruits and vegetables and, um, you know, and making sure that you’re not getting any, a lot of chemical additives, I should say, in the diet. But then eating on a frequent basis. Don’t make your body wait for the food. Eat your meals.
MARK WRIGHT 39:00
Yeah, you’ve told me in the past, uh, you know, try to eat something within 20 minutes of getting up in the morning, right?
DR. EMILY COOPER 39:03
Yeah, yes, exactly. So, you know, as soon as you can, have your breakfast. Um, it can be up to an hour, but we try to minimize actually the overnight fasting period. So, if you are, you know, staying up late, you probably need a snack because it’s been a long time since you had your dinner potentially. And so, so that’s something to think about first, even as an athlete, daily nutrition, then, okay, now you’re ready to start adding something. So then as you add in. You’ve got to think you’ve got to add on top of your daily nutrition enough fuel to support that activity and so the fueling depending on what you’re doing if you’re just doing workouts, you know half an hour or 40 minutes You don’t really have to do anything special for those other than just adding, increasing your calories and probably your carbs. But if you’re doing longer workouts that are over an hour, then you need to really start thinking about the timing of what’s called pre workout nutrition. What you’re eating before your workouts, maybe even needing to fuel during your workouts, and then the post workout fueling. So, it becomes a science actually, the longer the workouts are. But sports nutrition is a fantastic field and it’s very predictable, very reliable science. And so, it’s pretty easy to come up with a sports nutrition plan based on the current guidelines. And so, um, but it depends again on how long your workouts are. So, if they’re not too long, it’s pretty safe, but if they start getting longer and you’re, you’re not matching the, you know, the fuel intake, it can lead to things like overtraining syndrome, slowing of your metabolism, increased body fat, um, things that you wouldn’t, wouldn’t expect and even blood sugar regulation problems with low blood sugar reactions.
MARK WRIGHT 41:04
Wow, because exercise, especially intense exercise, is adding a really dynamic new element to that feedback loop, right? It’s like, oh man, we’re burning a ton of calories here and the body has to react to that, right?
DR. EMILY COOPER 41:18
It does. And if it’s already trying to ration you based on no exercise, imagine how much it will crank down that metabolic rate once it starts to see what one of the problems is the body cannot reduce your metabolic, metabolic rate very much while you’re exercising. I mean it can it can if it needs to it can stop you from reaching like your maximal level. You’ll feel like you’re reaching it, but it creates a false ceiling to prevent you from spending more energy. But it ends up making up for it for the next 24 hours by slowing down your base rates to conserve the energy because it felt threatened basically by that workout and concerned that you might do it again.
MARK WRIGHT 42:01
So, let’s, I want to know a little bit more about you because you’re one of those people and I, I love people like you because you don’t often just start rambling about yourself, which is unlike me. But, uh, so I don’t, I mean, until we started talking a little more recently. I don’t know a ton about you, but when we had our conversation a few weeks ago and I started to learn more about your, your medical journey and just your life journey, I was really impressed by a couple of things. One was when you decide, let me just back up. When you were sort of college age, you would go on these nature Like Walden Pond Sabbaticals. Like, by yourself. So, you went to college here in the Northwest up in Bellingham. And so, I want to know more about the mindset of a college student who decides, I’m going to go live in a cabin for two months and just try to find myself. Tell me what was, what was going on.
DR. EMILY COOPER 43:01
That was such a wonderful time. Um, I just really wanted to explore silence a little bit and reduce the level of stimulation in the environment and just kind be of peace of nature um, and I’m so glad that I did. I may never have decided to go into medicine if I hadn’t done that. Um, it really was there when I was on some of these, these nature journeys, um, that it came to me that I, I did want to go into the healing arts, basically, um, but it was such a great time. I’ll never forget probably any of the moments that I spent. It’s, it’s kind of interesting how it seems like it was just yesterday because it left such a strong impression.
MARK WRIGHT 43:51
Isn’t that interesting, Emily? Because when you, when you look at our culture, I don’t think our culture wants to reward or recognize the value of contemplation. I mean, I feel like if you’re not doing something, you’re wasting your time. I feel like, you know, if I was that kid that was always staring out the window in school when I was in grade school and I would just constantly, the poor teachers were, I was always on another planet, but just the idea that you’re, you want to go somewhere just to think.
DR. EMILY COOPER 44:24
Yes. And just to observe nature and be in the moment and be. Yes, uh, yeah, be in the present.
MARK WRIGHT 44:34
And it allowed you to, to really feel what that calling was going to be.
DR. EMILY COOPER 44:39
It really did. And it, it energized me also, um, I think I’ve still working off of some of the energy that I got back then. So, it, it provided an immense amount of energy to my spirit that, uh, I could take to try to do my best to do what I do now.
MARK WRIGHT 45:01
You worked in some pretty rural areas when you first started practicing as a physician. It’s really demanding. Um, you know, in terms from a resource standpoint, what were some, what were some valuable lessons? Like what were some of the big, big lessons that you learned about truly what, uh, a physician does and should be.
DR. EMILY COOPER 45:23
Yeah. I mean, I think having a strong relationship with your patients is just so important and really listening to them, um, about their own, what I call physiologic intuition. So, because I believe that no doctor, no coach, no dietitian can actually tell a patient certain things and you know that a patient themselves doesn’t know better for themselves, you know what they should be doing. I can’t you can’t really tell a patient uhm you should be doing this, you should be doing that, you should be doing this. If you do that the patient loses their sense of just physiologic intuition, their ability to judge how they’re feeling and what their responses are and to trust those.
MARK WRIGHT 46:13
Because they’re asking the doctor to do that thinking for them.
DR. EMILY COOPER 46:16
Yes, exactly. So sometimes I’m, I don’t provide a lot of detailed instruction because I feel I don’t have the, a place to do that. I feel the patient is more in the right position for that. One of the, the most amazing things that I learned because I, I did practice in very rural areas and in order to prepare for that I had to be good at obstetrics because we didn’t have any OB docs, um and surgery I had to, I had to prep for. So, I got a lot of additional training in delivering babies and whether it was vaginal deliveries or C sections and things. And that taught me quite a bit too, because I remember delivering, you know, my first hundred babies and it just didn’t feel right. And so, one of the midwives told me why don’t you go observe this doctor doing this next delivery? And I went in, and he was very unique in his approach. And it was just the most beautiful experience, like, I had had in the delivery room. I couldn’t believe it. It was, he hardly did anything. I mean, he, he really took a hands-off approach, pretty much. And, um, it was amazing.
MARK WRIGHT 47:36
Because this process has been kind of going on for a while.
DR. EMILY COOPER 47:39
It has been going on for a while. But that’s not how they teach you, though, in med school. They teach you that it’s like a disease state or something. You know, that, that the doctor should go through these maneuvers that you’re supposed to do to kind of, um, you know, receive the baby and how you’re supposed to turn the baby and do these different maneuvers. This doctor had the mom reach down and deliver her own baby. Yeah. And, um, I mean, she had had, she was an experienced mom. She’d had a baby before, this was her second child. I don’t know if you could do that with the first. But then he turned to me and he said, okay, do your next hundred this way. So, I actually did. I was blown away because that was a big eye opener. Um, I was in the way, actually, in the other deliveries. So, I think that’s something that shaped my general philosophy, too, in medicine, is to not get in the way of the patient.
MARK WRIGHT 48:39
That’s so profound. That is such a great story that just illuminates who you are. Um, I’d love to hear a little bit more about your childhood because when we talked about your, your father and grandmother and sounds like a, just a super interesting family. You grew up in, uh, outside of New York. So, tell me about your dad.
DR. EMILY COOPER 49:01
My dad was the funniest man alive. I mean, he had the best sense of humor, and he was somebody that was in the present. You know, I, I really admired that about him. I’d catch him just kind of staring and looking at his surroundings and taking it all in at times. And I really admired that. Um, but he was a kind, wonderful, funny man, and he was in the motion picture business, and, um, he, I think I might have mentioned he started out, he really wanted to get into film, the film business, and, um, he wanted to be a news anchor like you, Mark, like you were, and he would practice, this is before I was born, he was, you know, practicing recording himself, and he took it very seriously, and he couldn’t, he didn’t really have, um, an inroad there. But he was looking for a job and he was taking the train into New York, um, with other people looking for jobs and things, and one day he saw a group playing bridge and they needed another player and he said, oh, I can play. So, he joined them, and it turned out to be, um, the CBS bridge team from CBS station. And so, he was so good at bridge that they needed him on the team. So, they hired him at CBS. So,
MARK WRIGHT 50:24
Columbia Broadcasting Service or System or whatever it is.
DR. EMILY COOPER 50:28
Yes, right, whatever it was, but it was a big, the eye, you know, and he ended up his first job, he had to stand on the corner of 5th Avenue dressed as a cartoon character, Deputy Dog, to advertise the cartoon.
MARK WRIGHT 50:41
You gotta start somewhere.
DR. EMILY COOPER 50:43
Yeah. And the other job he had was sweeping up the news clippings, you know, the clippings, the film clippings off the newsroom floor.
MARK WRIGHT 50:50
Was he there at the same time that Edward R. Murrow was back in the day? So, Murrow would have been there, you know, made his mark, you know, during the Second World War.
DR. EMILY COOPER 51:01
He was there with Cronkite, I know. Yeah. Cronkite was, uh was on, you know, when he was there and, um,
MARK WRIGHT 51:11
But your dad rose through the ranks. Tell me about that.
DR. EMILY COOPER 51:15
He rose through the ranks. He ended up VP then a president then he was he got into international film distribution and became president of Orion Pictures.
MARK WRIGHT 51:25
Wow. That’s a major studio.
DR. EMILY COOPER 51:27
Yes. And especially at the time, it was a major studio. And, um, he and, and my mom would travel to the film festivals. And when they first started, uh, the Deauville and Cannes film festival was older, but, but before they really had a lot of momentum. So anyway, it was, he was a character, and he was very authentic. Um, and people trusted him because he kind of didn’t really fit in the business, um, because he was so authentic. But uh.
MARK WRIGHT 51:55
What was it about your dad that, I mean, he must have been extremely smart, but what was it about him that allowed him to, to, to go from a guy that just was asked to fill in on a bridge game to become the president of a major motion picture studio?
DR. EMILY COOPER 52:09
I gotta say it’s his charm. I mean, he is so charming. Um, he was charming. People love to be around him. Um, he just brought light and love to every room that he was in and he had this contagious, beautiful laugh, like it was so loud that we would travel around the world and people would come and say, oh, Ed, I thought I heard you even from, you know, in another country, they recognized his laugh, but yeah, he, he was, he was something and my mom, uh, very strong as well, real, real strong individual, very, kind of, uh, strategic thinker and a can do person, make it happen, you can do it if you if you try kind of person. Uh, very supportive family.
MARK WRIGHT 52:56
Did they encourage you to go into medicine?
DR. EMILY COOPER 52:59
Um, they did, you know, they left it to me to decide, really, um, but, but they did. But um, it’s funny in my family, the arts were celebrated the most. So, if you’re an artist, um, a musician, you know, the cultural aspect was, was highly valued in my family. So, medicine was, was valued. And as I say, my grandma was a doctor and her son, my, her, my father’s brother was a doctor as well. So, it is on that side of the family, and I think it’s something that’s sort of in your blood.
MARK WRIGHT 53:32
Yeah. So, when your dad got the job in movies, you guys moved out to Los Angeles, right? And that sort of spurred you to flee Los Angeles. I mean, back in the day, you remember those old pictures of L. A. in the smog years?
DR. EMILY COOPER 53:46
Yes, it was the smog years.
MARK WRIGHT 53:48
So, you, you, you fled, uh, and we, we are the beneficiaries of, of, of you fleeing California for the Pacific Northwest. Um, Emily, at what point did you decide that, um, that metabolic syndrome and the study of metabolism was going to be your life’s calling? Because you’ve done it for how many years?
DR. EMILY COOPER 54:10
Yeah, it’s really going on, geez, um, when I really started getting into diving into how does the metabolism work was about 1999. So, it’s quite a ways, quite a while ago now, um, you know, that’s almost 25 years.
MARK WRIGHT 54:27
And, um, I’ve done some stories over the years on doctors who have taken unconventional approaches to, to medicine and, and there’s, there’s a real strata, you know, there’s a real power structure in in medicine in America. There’s the establishment and then there’s everybody else. I remember, I remember for years chiropractors were, were perceived as quacks. Like, gosh, don’t go to a chiropractor. But I think, you know, some chiropractors were quacks. They were saying they could, they could cure anything with chiropractic. But like acupuncture and chiropractic and, and I mean, we’re starting to understand there is value to some of these modalities. And, and I think it makes me think though, that though with what you’ve chosen to do with your career, I’m guessing you’ve had some pushback and I’m guessing there’s, there’s been some judgment, right?
DR. EMILY COOPER 55:19
Oh yes, absolutely. Um, less now than there was previously. Um, but I think cause I was so diving into the most current research and so aware of really the science behind metabolism and it was something that others may not have known about when they you know, first heard about it, they were thinking, what are you talking about? Um, but I think after people started to see the results in our patients, um, things, the tide started to change at least in the community. But um, I do remember in the beginning when I was trying to explain, um, about the energy conservation to doctors and things like that, um, that would refer patients to me, um, they would just get upset. I would try to, you know, uh, pressure me into putting the patient on a diet and I would try to explain why that’s not the right strategy. I think, uh, things are changing, but it’s taking a long time. It’s taking an awfully long time. In medicine, really the most valuable data is clinical data, real life patient clinician data. And that’s something that’s really hard to come by. And it’s something that motivated me, uh, quite a while ago to form the Diabesity Institute, which is a nonprofit. And it’s focused on increasing access to care for people who do have this metabolic dysfunction. And we do that through different avenues. Um, we’re focusing on this database so that we can actually show providers what it really does if you do focus on, on metabolic syndrome and metabolic dysfunction, how it does save lives and it does reduce the risk of heart attack, strokes, diabetes, and it benefits the patients so much. So, we actually have the data to, to prove it. Um, and we’re very transparent with that data. And I think that’s so important that we’ve been able to establish that. And then we’re also, uh, doing some training and, um, we’re excited to be doing this with the WORKP2P groups helping us establish this modern metabolic masterclass for healthcare providers, which, um, through the Diabesity Institute is an effort to train more providers in this area. And I think the more we train them, the less defensive, you know, they’ll be about the knowledge they may not have and the more curious they might be about finding out more.
MARK WRIGHT 57:41
WORKP2P, of course, the, the company that produces the BEATS WORKING podcast, and soon we’ll be producing, uh, we’re in the process of producing a podcast featuring you called Fat Science, and your childhood friend Andrea Taylor is, is, it’s going to be the three of us. And I’m so, so, Emily, looking forward to this because I think, number one, the message needs to get out. And I think that, you know, this is just scratching the surface this, this time that we’ve had together today. And I think if, if anybody listening has, has a hunger to learn a little bit more about this, we’re going to have new episodes every, uh, is it two weeks? I think. I can’t remember what the schedule is.
DR. EMILY COOPER 58:21
Every week, I think we’ll have it. Yeah, I think they’re going to be released every week.
MARK WRIGHT 58:25
So that’s news to me. No, I’m kidding. No, but, but I think, uh, that’s going to be just a fantastic platform for people to really truly understand, um, what you’re doing and what metabolic syndrome is. I guess, is there anything that you, you’d love to leave our, our listeners with? I mean, I feel like. You’ve taken a really bold path, uh, in your life. You certainly haven’t taken the easy road. Um, and I didn’t even mention that you don’t, you don’t deal with insurance companies in your practice. Because, and, and we’ll just, let’s, let’s spend just a minute on that. Um, what, why, why is that? What, where did that decision come from?
DR. EMILY COOPER 59:07
Well, early on I started, when I first started practicing, um, I looked at the contracts with insurance companies and even the wording just seemed like a conflict of interest. It seemed like you’re working and promising the insurance companies certain things instead of the dedication you should have to your patients to provide them the best care. So, I felt like it was, um, something that could interfere with providing the type of care that I wanted to provide. I didn’t want to worry about being, you know, reporting to the insurance company of why I was choosing one, um, referral source versus another or one medication versus another. So, I just wanted to give the best advice I could to the patients and then see what happened from there. And, um, so right from the beginning of my practice, I never did sign a contract with an insurance company. I’ve never done that. Um, but we do deal with insurance because of course, when we’re prescribing medication or we’re prescribing different kinds of imaging studies or referrals. Now we’re dealing with that patient’s insurance of whether they will approve it or not.
MARK WRIGHT 01:00:16
Yeah. So, um, I’m guessing there may be more than a few people. I mean, the thing that’s also, uh, uh, astounded me and maybe not astounded me, but you’ve had a way, a huge waiting list, a huge backlog of patients, which speaks to just the word of mouth, um, that’s spreading about your practice. Um, I tell everybody I can and, and, and just, they want to know more because they know that the current system is, is really not working. Um, do you have any advice, Emily, for somebody listening? They want to know more about metabolic syndrome? They, maybe they’re struggling with their weight or how they feel?
DR. EMILY COOPER 01:00:52
Yeah, I mean, I think definitely try to open up a conversation with your provider and see if you can get them talking about it more and make sure that you are aware of all your numbers when it comes to blood pressure, blood glucose, insulin, your cholesterol levels, and things like that. And let them know you want to take a preventative approach, that taking a preventative approach means catching things earlier and doing a kind of a deeper look than you would typically in regular, you know, medical care these days. So, I think that’s important. Um, and I do have a book that I did write quite a while ago. I did the second edition in 2015, um, and I think the first edition was 2013 and it is called “The Metabolic Storm: The Science of Your Metabolism.” But um, I’m working on another, uh, update on it because it’s been so long, but patients still tell me that it’s been really valuable for them to read it. So that, that might be of help. And, um, I think just talking to, just being honest and getting, not being afraid to say to your friends and your family, hey, you know, something’s going on. Um, I’m learning that these diets don’t work and that they can actually harm your metabolism. So just kind of changing the mindset, I think is a person to person thing. And, um, hopefully, hopefully it works on a grassroots level to, to, to kind of change the normal conversation that we’re having around this topic.
MARK WRIGHT 01:02:27
Do you think that people, maybe 20, 30 years from now, 40 years from now, will, will have a fundamentally different perception of what causes obesity and metabolic syndrome? Do you think it’s going to be mainstream? in a couple of decades?
DR. EMILY COOPER 01:02:41
Unfortunately, no. Um, I don’t because I think that we’ve had over a hundred years of data showing that diets slow your metabolism. Um, so, um, Benedict who’s a, uh a famous person, a hundred years ago, used the same kind of equipment we have now that we do the VO2 max testing with, um, but it was a less sophisticated form of it, but it was accurate. And he measured the metabolic rate of people before and after they were put on diets and he wrote about it then and it was, it was repeated. It’s been repeated probably, gosh, I don’t know, at least tens of thousands of times since then, but I, I don’t, so I don’t really know, but the diet industry is, um, you know, a very lucrative industry, um, with the buzz around pharmacology now, which took about 20 years since the meds actually have hit. You know, since the meds really hit the horizon here, but, uh, it, it took a while for people to actually pay attention, but there is a buzz now about pharmacology, but I’m afraid that the way it’s being approached is missing the point that we’re talking about the metabolism, we’re not talking about weight and weight loss. We’re talking about the metabolism. It’s much deeper than just, you know, a doctor with a syringe and a diet plan.
MARK WRIGHT 01:04:09
Yeah. Well, this has been so fun, uh, getting to know you a little bit better, getting to know more about what you do professionally, and I just can’t wait, uh, for Fat Science to launch, uh, later this fall. It’ll be, uh, on all the platforms and, uh, that I think that’s gonna be some of the most rewarding work of, uh, of, uh, my life anyway, in terms of just helping people and, uh, creating amazing content that really makes a difference in the world. So, Dr. Emily Cooper, I appreciate you and it’s, it’s so great being in, in your, in your sphere and, uh, just really grateful.
DR. EMILY COOPER 01:04:44
The feeling’s mutual, Mark. Thank you.
MARK WRIGHT 01:04:46
Thank you for all that you’ve done for me and so many thousands of patients. Um, let’s keep in touch and we’ll see you on Fat Science. Soon. Dropping weekly. All right. We’ll talk soon. I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. And if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING, where we are winning the game of work.
