What is the value of diversity in your organization? Katherine Cheng has been a student of diversity, equity, and inclusion her entire life—because she has lived it.
Katherine is the Vice President of People and Culture and DEI for the Seattle Mariners. She is the youngest of four daughters raised by their single mom—an immigrant and a brilliant cancer researcher.
When asked what she learned from her mom about race and racism, Katherine says that it wasn’t what was said that taught her the most; it was what she saw and experienced.
As a latchkey kid, Katherine jokes that Phil Donahue raised her. Still, those early lessons in politics inspired her to work for Gary Locke, the first Chinese American Governor in American history.
Katherine has held critical positions at Starbucks, Microsoft, and Expedia over her career, and she shares a wealth of stories and knowledge from her work at each organization in this episode. Today, she says her role with the Mariners is her “dream job,” but is also quick to tell you, “I am not your typical DEI officer.”
Resources from the episode:
- Connect with Katherine on LinkedIn.
- Follow Katherine on Facebook.
- Learn more about Katherine in this short video from #OSAYS featuring some of its founding members—Katherine Cheng, Mari Horita, and Maya Mendoza-Exstrom.
- Check out the Seattle Mariners here.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: Katherine Cheng and Mark Wright
KATHERINE CHENG 00:00
Things like baseball, things like music, things like art, those are the things that keep us connected, right? And even in baseball, they’re, it’s, it’s a job. People work in a job, and they work very hard. And my job now is to impact those people and to impact them in a way that makes them feel good, makes them feel like they have a place that they’re that, that they’re valued, because I think at the end of the day, everybody wants to be valued and to, and that’s what I mean by impact also. They want to feel valued, and they want to feel like the work that they’re doing matters. Somebody, somebody cares about the work that you’re doing.
MARK WRIGHT 00:46
This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work – the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to BEATS WORKING. On the show this week, the value of diversity at work. Katherine Cheng is the Vice President of Culture, DEI, and Recruiting for the Seattle Mariners Baseball Club. Katherine has been a student of diversity, equity, and inclusion her entire life because she has lived it. Katherine is the youngest of four daughters raised by their single mom, an immigrant and brilliant cancer researcher. When I asked Katherine what her mom taught her about race and racism, she told me it’s what wasn’t said that taught her the most. It’s what she saw and experienced then and now. As a latchkey kid, Katherine jokes that she was raised by Phil Donahue, but those early lessons in politics inspired her to work for Gary Locke, the first Chinese American governor in American history. Over her career, Katherine held key roles at Starbucks, Microsoft, and Expedia. Today as a VP at a Major League Baseball franchise, Katherine calls this her dream job, but is quick to tell you I am not your typical DEI officer. It was so much fun spending time with and learning from Katherine Cheng. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Katherine Cheng, welcome to the BEATS WORKING podcast. It’s so great to have you here. Thank you for being on the show.
KATHERINE CHENG 02:17
Thanks for having me, Mark.
MARK WRIGHT 02:20
So right now, you are Vice President, let’s see if I can get this right, of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion and Culture and Recruiting for the Seattle Mariners Baseball Organization.
KATHERINE CHENG 02:31
That’s right.
MARK WRIGHT 02:33
How you got to this point in your career is just a super interesting journey that we’re going to explore for the next little bit. I want to talk about the Mariners and DEI and all that good stuff coming up. But, so let me go back, Katherine, and let’s start, you’re, you’re born here, raised here, um, grew up in Bellevue. Tell me a little bit about your childhood. Tell me a little bit about your family.
KATHERINE CHENG 02:56
Yeah, I grew up in Bellevue. Um, my mother was a single mother of four girls. I was the youngest of four girls and my mom was a cancer researcher. Um, I would say by day, except for her job as a cancer researcher, literally was 24 hours because, um, she would put, you know, she would do experiments and have to go back to the lab to change solutions. And it was literally my whole life. We grew up in the lab with her at the VA Medical Center at the University of Washington Medical Center. So, um, you know, having her as my role model, um, you know, she, she not only did cancer research, but she also taught violin and piano, and then she tutored Math and Science. And, um, and she also, um, refurbished different types of furniture that, I mean, she was, she was kind of this Jill of all traits and kind of scrappy and did whatever she could to make money to support us because for girls is not cheap. And, um, and we didn’t have a lot, but my mom, the one thing she wanted us.
MARK WRIGHT 03:56
Wow. And, and she did this.
KATHERINE CHENG 03:59
Yeah, the, the one thing that she wanted us to do was to actually play the violin. Isn’t that funny? It’s kind of stereotypical, but, um, all four of my sisters, all four of us, we played violin. Actually my, my, um, oldest, my second oldest sister, she plays violin in the Pittsburgh Symphony.
MARK WRIGHT 04:15
So, I too played the violin through the Suzuki method when I was a little kid.
KATHERINE CHENG 04:20
That’s what I did.
MARK WRIGHT 04:21
Also played piano through Suzuki method. And, uh, did you really? And so, your mom had aspirations and you actually have one of your sisters is a professional violinist.
KATHERINE CHENG 04:31
Yes. Actually, um, my oldest sister also, so my oldest sister went to Juilliard and, um, and then she went to Yale University for graduate school in music. My second sister, um, went to the University of Washington and got a degree in, I think it was architecture. And then she, um, but she did that as a backup because she wanted to be a violinist. And then she went to Yale also to follow this professor and, um, and, uh, got her master’s in music there and then went and played all over the world in Barcelona, Portugal, um, Malaysia, started the, you know, was part of the first um, National Symphony in Malaysia. And then now she’s with the Pittsburgh Symphony for, I don’t know, over 15 years now, I think.
MARK WRIGHT 05:13
As you talk about your mom, Katherine, she sounds like just an extraordinary woman. That was, holy cow, where did she find the energy to do all of that? And by the way, is a, is a cancer researcher at the same time.
KATHERINE CHENG 05:25
Yeah. My mom is um, very special. We kind of joke that she’s both Goodwill Hunting and Forrest Gump because she just sort of has those moments in her life that, um, that she’s so clueless about because she’s very much a mad scientist. She’s a, we call her the mad scientist and then she’s an artist too, so we call her the mad scientist and the crazy artist because she just, she has the ability to use both sides of the brain but she’s also very, um, clueless about a lot of things because she’s so focused on art and music, but then science. I mean, she just, you know, so it’s, it’s very interesting cause I don’t feel like I got any of those points from her, which is unfortunate, but, um, but I did get the, um, sort of the attitude of, I can kind of do anything and, um, and do a lot of things at once, which sometimes is not great because you’re doing too many things at once. But, but I do think that I got that from her cause she, there was never something that she didn’t think she could do essentially. And being the mother of, you know, single mother of four kids, you kind of had to be scrappy and, and sort of rise to every challenge.
MARK WRIGHT 06:35
What a great outlook. Um, your mom was born in China, right? And went to Taiwan and then immigrated here. Is that right?
KATHERINE CHENG 06:41
Yeah, she was born in China, grew up during the war. Um, my grandfather was a General in the, um, the, uh, KMT, the Kuomintang army. And, um, and after they, he, he fought with MacArthur, um, against the communists and of course they lost. And so, after that, the family moved to Taiwan and that’s where she went for a couple years and then ended up coming to the U.S. when she was 18 to go to school.
MARK WRIGHT 07:06
And where did she go to school to get her degree to study cancer?
KATHERINE CHENG 07:11
Well, it’s kind of funny. It kind of, it’s in a roundabout way. She went to anywhere that would give her a full rise. And so, she started out at Linfield College of all places in Oregon. And, um, and that’s where she met Billy Graham, and he was starting his first crusade and asked her to go on that. Um, she of course had really no interest in, in, um, religion at the time and, um, and was really focused on studying. And then she left Linfield cause she took all the classes she could in science and, um, it’s a liberal arts college. So she went, ended up going to the University of Washington and majored in Math and Biology. And then she went on to go to Masters.
MARK WRIGHT 07:49
And he asked her to come on the crusade?
KATHERINE CHENG 07:52
Yes. This is why I say that my mom is like, um, is like Forrest Gump because she like pops up on, you know, at different areas and different things. It’s just random. But, uh, but yeah, um, she had met him because um, when he came to the university, she was one of the only foreign students and the president and his wife took an interest in her and invited her to, um, a dinner at their home and he was the honored guest. And so, he was talking to her and saying he was going on a trip. That’s what she remembered because her English wasn’t great. But, uh, but yeah, that was the, that was the trip that, that she was invited to go on.
MARK WRIGHT 08:29
What did you learn from your mom, Katherine, growing up in terms of, uh, we’ll get into all the really interesting things that you’ve done in your life and your career, but what was it about your mom that you really think, um, has, uh, kind of lives in you today?
KATHERINE CHENG 08:44
You know, it’s interesting because my mom had a lot of adversity, even though she, I mean, you wouldn’t have, you wouldn’t have known that if you knew my mom at the time, but uh, single mom again, um, and really, you know, struggling to, to make ends meet because she was highly educated, um, but she had a heavy accent and, um, and there was a lot of discrimination that she dealt with in her workplace. Um, she did cancer research for many years and um, and many times, she was the one that, um, that wrote the papers for publishing and, you know, anybody who’s in research knows that publishing is like, that, that’s where you have to go, you have to publish. And she would write the papers only to find that they would get published and her name was left off of the publication. So, um, so the things like that where I would see this, you know, I would see her get very angry, you know, she quit a couple of times. I’d come home and see her car in the driveway, which was not normal, and it was like, oh my gosh, what happened? And she gets so mad she quit but then she’d end up going back because you know, she needed to work and, um, but also just in terms of the, the hours and, um, and the low pay for, you know, doing cancer research. So, watching her and seeing, first of all, how happy she was though, she was, she’s a, an extremely joyful person, my mom, and, um, she loved cooking. So, the memories I have of her growing up are, um, her making pot stickers in front of the TV, watching epic, and I’m talking epic soap opera, Asian soap operas, um, at two, three in the morning. And I’d make them with her because she would freeze them so that for me as a latchkey kid, I would have food to make myself when, when she wasn’t there. And, um, you know, when I was in high school, she ended up going away for six months at a time to help take care of my grandfather because she was also, you know, one of eight children. And when my grandfather got sick in Taiwan, um, she would go back and help take care of him. And that’s when she learned that she was actually very good at art. Um, you know, growing up, she painted a lot. She loved to paint, but, um, but she found her, um, foothold in, in Asian, um, calligraphy painting and she became quite good. And so during that time, literally I, I existed off of her potsticker bags and bags of potstickers that she would make and put in the freezer. But, uh, but really what I learned from her was just, you know, that sleep is not, you know, sleep is not something that you need, which I do need nowadays. But, um, but it was just sort of like, there weren’t enough hours in the day to do the things that you needed to do. And no matter how little you have or how much you have going on in your lives, you can always be there for other people. So, when, when I was growing up also, there was a, um, an influx of Cambodian refugees. And my mom was one of, um, many people in the community who helped out. But, but she, she, in, you know, even though she was an immigrant, and she had a lot of things that, going on in her life, she would help, um, um, one particular family that she befriended and, um, drove the mom everywhere to try and find a job and we were constantly cooking for them and bringing food and they’d be, you know, their kids were so amazing, they became very successful and, um, and it was just watching how my mom, again, not having very much, always wanting to give things to other people, picking up strangers, kids when we were, you know, young, hitchhiking and we were like, what is she doing? You know? I mean, nowadays we think about it, what was she doing? But back then it was like, all right, scoot on the floor in the station wagon. ‘Cause there’s a kid that’s out in the rain that she’s picking up, you know, hitchhiking. And we’d let the kid in the car and we’d go on our way. So just things like that where, you know, nowadays I don’t think you can do that, but uh, but those were great lessons in um in hard work, perseverance and giving back to, you know, giving back no matter how little you have.
MARK WRIGHT 12:46
Oh my gosh. She sounds amazing. I love it. Um, speaking of latch key when we talked a few weeks ago, um, you said that you were raised by your mom and Phil Donahue. I remember watching Donahue. Um, what, what, what was that like? I mean, you, it sounds like you, it made you pretty independent, right?
KATHERINE CHENG 13:06
Yeah. I think, um, you know, it’s funny because. My mom, again, you know, we would see her at like 11pm and she’d race home and, and start stir frying dinner for us and then we’d eat at midnight and, and, you know, we didn’t see her that often because she was working so much and trying to provide for us. And so I would get home after school and, um, and I would watch Phil Donahue and, um, and I think that, you know, was interesting because when I look back and I was, I always joke about that, but I, um, but it is true because, when I used to watch Phil Donahue, that’s where I, I really got so much information and education about civics, about politics, about the world. Um, right now what’s happening in Israel and in Palestine, it’s, it’s this is kind of the stuff that was going on when I was growing up and watching Phil Donahue. I mean, this is when Yitzhak Rabin and all the, you know, these leaders he had on his show where he was reporting on it. And, um, and so I really felt like when I, um, look back on my, on, on my youth, it was racing home every day so that I could watch the Phil Donahue show, and it informed me, it, um, it also formed the way that I thought about things. I tend to be liberal and, um, and I think the topics and the things that he talked about, humanity and, um, and compassion and things. Those are the things that I really learned from watching his show. And so, I credit him with that. And I actually got to meet him, and I got to tell him that. And that was really amazing.
MARK WRIGHT 14:41
Oh my gosh. Um, where was that? Where did you guys meet?
KATHERINE CHENG 14:45
So when I was working at Expedia, we had a partnership with St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital, um, of which Marla, Marlo Thomas, his wife, um, her whole family, her father started it and they used to host a dinner every year and I got to go and I, I was so excited because, and I couldn’t believe that I was going to meet Phil Donahue, but then I was able to tell him that he raised me. So…
MARK WRIGHT 15:13
It’s such a great story. I mean, and also it speaks to, I mean, that was a really great talk show. Um, it, it, you know, these days it’s, it’s about pregnancy tests and people yelling at each other, but that back in the day, that was great journalism, you know, that Phil Donahue did back in the day. Um, I’d love to ask you a question that, and this, this is probably a little sensitive, but it’s something that I’ve wondered. Um, as a white person, we never had to talk about race around the kitchen table. Um, but so many people of color that I know in my life, when we’ve had the discussion, um, you know, they tell me that, yeah, that, that was a discussion that started pretty early in life. And, and, and I’d love to know what your mom taught you about race and racism across the kitchen table when you were a kid.
KATHERINE CHENG 16:03
You know, that’s a very tricky one, um, because my mom didn’t really talk to us about race. Um, growing up in an Asian household, um, and you may hear this from some Asian families, especially back in, um, you know, when I was growing up, um, there was, there was a sense of, of, and this is why Asians have sort of this, um, there’s a stereotype of Asians being very quiet and meek and, and I am so not that stereotype, but, and I never have been. And my mom, I think would always say, you know, maybe, maybe don’t be so vocal, right? Like they’re like, so I think like many other. Um, um, friends that I have, their parents were the same way that we would be told, don’t, don’t be so loud. Don’t be so vocal about what you think, you know, and I have a very big opinion about a lot of things, especially politics, but, um, and so I think that it was interesting watching it and it was almost the things that she didn’t say to me that drove me more to the way that I am, because there were things that I saw, and I know that other, um, children of immigrants see this too in their parents. My mom, again, had a, like I said, had a heavy accent. I would go places with her and see how she was treated, um, because of her accent. I was a child when, um, we would go to a store. We were planning a trip. My mom loves taking us. She loved taking us to National Parks. She just loved National Parks. So we’d always drove on these, um, you know, epic trips to go to National Parks. And we would always stop at AAA. And I remember going there one day with her to get the maps and to kind of map out where we were, you know, the route. And this woman that was working there, this older woman, I would not talk to my mom. She kept talking to me. I think I was maybe 13 or 14, but I was kind of mouthy. So, um, she kept talking to me and I kept saying, I don’t know, I’m not the one driving. And I would say to my mom, can you answer her? And my mom kind of didn’t really understand what was going on. Like she didn’t, my mom is a very, she’s probably the nicest person in the whole world, I swear. And so, she didn’t pick up on it. And, and so I got really upset and I told the woman off and I said I’m not the one that’s here. I’m not the one driving. Why are you not talking to her? And then of course it, it didn’t look great. So, but you know, because it was like disrespecting elders, but, but it was very frustrating because we didn’t have those conversations.
MARK WRIGHT 18:41
That’s a, that’s a really interesting story and the fact that at 13 you had the courage to speak up in that situation. Wow, that, that’s, that’s amazing. That’s really amazing, Katherine.
KATHERINE CHENG 18:52
Yeah, I think that, you know, when, because we grew up with my mom not being home a lot, we had a lot of freedom, my sisters and I. And, and we, we kind of, you know, we were on our own and we all kind of have very strong opinions. So, so there was just a sense of like, and I, I don’t know, growing up too, because I grew up in Bellevue, it was a very white place. And I saw other things with friends, parents, or teachers, even, you know, just certain things like that, where Bellevue is not the same as it was when I was growing up. And I, you know, I, I really dislike Bellevue because of it. I have, I don’t, I don’t have the memories of Bellevue or not, um, are, you know, like childhood memories are different than many people who I grew up with, I think. Um, but, but there was just a sense of, um, I, I got the feeling that a lot of people when I spoke up would, would have that opinion of you need to shut up and, and know your place and know your place as in, You’re not white, so you don’t have the right to say what you, you don’t have a right to opinions, and you don’t have a right to speak up. So, um, so like I said, those kind of things drove me to Um, and then of course, you know, watching shows like Donahue again, because there was something about, um, you know, it was, it was a shame because at the end of the show, at the end of his run, he, he started to do more sensational things because Oprah came on the scene, Jerry Springer, all these other shows, and he had to compete and he would do things where he, you know, the leather jacket, the spiked hair, and I was like, what are you doing, you know, as a fashion show or whatever, and I really craved for those other things because those were the things where it didn’t matter. Um, it didn’t matter who you were, what your background was, you had access to this information. And, and so learning about, um, the issues of the world and people who were standing up and speaking up and, and, um, and, and tackling issues head on, that was, that was I think what also helped me to say, you know what, I’m a person who has the ability to, to do these things, to impact things. And so, I’m going to do it. So those were, you know, so growing up it was interesting because, um, you know, when you asked me about my mom and, and conversations, you know, there were, there were a lot of racist things that happened, but we didn’t really talk about it. It was really more of a, you know, um, and I have a, an angry side. I think it’s like, you know, I remember things and it would just be like, as kids, it would be like, you know, what the hell are you doing? You know, why are you treating us like that? Why are you treating my mom like that? Right? So, um, so lessons that were learned as we went along versus the conversations, um, different than the conversations that I have with my kids today.
MARK WRIGHT 21:47
Yeah. Yeah. What do, what do those conversations sound like with your, your kids? You’ve got two boys, right?
KATHERINE CHENG 21:53
Yeah. I have two boys. They’re 15-year-old twin boys. And, um, and they’re like, I mean, they’re Hoppa, they’re, they’re, um, half white. So, they have, they’re, they’re very lucky these days because there are a lot of kids that are Hoppa. And so, um, so having the ability to, um, to not be the only one kind of right like and it wasn’t like I was the only one, but you know there aren’t that many there weren’t that many Asians at the time growing up in Bellevue. And there was a distinction. When the refugee population showed up in Bellevue. I had even friends say things I mean people were just so racist and they didn’t even know it. But they would say things like they would make fun of the refugees and then I would say well I’m Asian too and then they would say oh no but that’s different, right? Like, like, oh, that, right. Like constantly sort of otherizing you no matter what. And, um, and so, so it’s just, uh, this is why I have this unhealthy relationship with Bellevue, but which is unfair, but at the same time, it’s just, you know, it is what it is. But, um, but, uh, but I think, um, but again, you know, the race issue, you know, when I was growing up and then when I went to the University of Washington, all of a sudden I saw, you know, and we, we grew up in Beacon Hill, basically because my mom worked there and we would go, you know, to all these places in Chinatown, all those areas over in that area. So I felt very comfortable there. But there was also sort of the, you’re not Asian enough and just, you know, a lot of people have this, this same dilemma growing up, I think, in when you’re growing up in a very white place and then you start to, you know, go into other places. But when I got to the University of Washington, that’s really where I sort of found my people and I joined the Asian, um, groups and, um, and then really took what I had learned and what I saw, you know, what my mom was doing in her everyday work, um, the way she was treated and then the immigration laws that were coming down in California that were trickling up to, to Washington. Um, but all the things that like the activism work and all those types of things that, um, that sort of took the, the learnings that I got from Donahue and put it into action. It was at the University of Washington and that’s where I sort of entered politics.
MARK WRIGHT 24:20
That’s really interesting. You, you majored in ethnic studies. You also got an MBA. Um, was that also at the UW?
KATHERINE CHENG 24:26
It was. Yep. Double husky.
MARK WRIGHT 24:29
Wow. And then you went back to DC. You did an intern, internship back in DC. Were you kind of in love with politics from, from the beginning, those, those Donahue days? And, and you thought, did you think that might be the career path for you as you got out of school?
KATHERINE CHENG 24:43
Yeah, in fact, I, so there were two things that I thought that I would do. I wanted to, I wanted to be a journalist and then I, uh, and then I also wanted to be a politician or diplomat. I just didn’t really know how to hone those things. Um, I didn’t have a lot of mentors growing up. I, you know, even applying to college, you know, and this is not a knock on my mom at all, but my mom was really busy trying to, you know, survive and, and there was no question in my family. No question. Every single of us, a single one of us was going to college, but there was no discussion of how, you know, like, how do you apply? How do you, you know, and I had older sisters, but they were, you know, we all had to do our own. And so, so it was kind of weird. I just remember, okay, I just fill out this form and I can apply to the Washington State schools. But I really wish that I had more direction so that I could have um, picked the school that I wanted to go to. And I love the U Dub. It’s a beautiful campus, but you know, I think that if I had been, if I had had a mentor to help guide me, I probably would have gone in a different direction, maybe more direct, um, in terms of school and what I was doing versus going to U Dub. And it’s so big and it was sort of, it lost a little bit and, um, and then just sort of, oh, I guess I’m going to major in this because I like this, but I don’t know how it applies to anything in terms of a career. Um, turns out it’s applicable to everything. Um, and I think so many things in, um, in college are that way, you know, whatever degree you have, many people don’t use the degree that they get, but I did want, I was so interested in journalism, and I still am like today. I’m so obsessed with, um, with, um, the news and, and, um, and the reporting and, and, um, and just that type of, that area, but then I’m also so obsessed with politics. Like I can’t, I can’t get enough of it. And so, um, but the reason that I’m not working in politics is that when I, I did an internship in D.C. right after college and D. C. was just not the place for me. I just didn’t feel, um, you know, it was just sort of like the, everybody wanted to know who you worked for, what you did, and, and that climbing thing, and that just wasn’t for me. And I, and, and I think that down the road in my career, it was the same thing in terms of, you know, not wanting to play the game to try and climb the ladder, because I just couldn’t stand that. I just wanted to do the stuff, do the work, do the, you know, for, for what it was, what it was. And, um, and so I ended up, um, I did actually go into politics for, um, several years. I worked for, I came home and I, I worked for Gary Locke, who was the first Asian American elected, um, to governor in the continental United States. And, um, and then, from there, I still was doing, um, side work with the White House, and I still do to this day, so I feel very lucky that I was able to, um, to take the interest I had in politics and keep it all these years, and I still have a foot in that, in, in that arena, while I was also able to, um, go the corporate route, because I’ll be honest with you, growing up with a single mom of four kids, who’s scrapping and, and working all kinds of jobs and all hours. I didn’t, I wanted, I wanted to have stability. And I wanted to have, um, you know, um, I wanted to have a career where I didn’t have to worry about, um, how much money I was making and, and, um, and the insurance and all of these things, right? And of course, you could have had that in politics, but it’s more, it’s, it’s more fluid politics is like you kind of jump from things to things, you know? So, so that was also kind of driving me a little bit as well.
MARK WRIGHT 28:41
Tell me about Gary Locke. I remember covering him as a journalist when he was in the state house in Olympia, and I always had a great deal of admiration for him. He was speaker of the house. He was a leader and immediate leader in that party, uh, for the Democrats in Olympia, and I was just, I’ve always been a fan of, of his, just because he always, um, he always showed up with integrity, and he always showed up with honesty, and, and he was always just a really good human, whenever he, whenever you would have an interaction with him, and it wasn’t a surprise when he was elected governor and, and then appointed ambassador. Um, what, what did you learn from Gary in those years and what, what was that experience like?
KATHERINE CHENG 29:25
It was so great to work for him and he was somebody who, um, was truly there for the job and, you know, I, I’ve met so many politicians, um, a lot of important people and a lot of important people who treat you, you know what I’m saying? Yes, yes. And, um, and he was, he was just, he was there for the job. He was, um, and he was actually quite fun to work with because a lot of people, you know, he’s very serious on the, on the, um, surface, but, um, he’s kind of, he’s, he’s kind of a jokester. And, um, I don’t know, I guess it was different for me, too, because I was, I was, so Mona, his wife at the time, um, who became, you know, she’s one of my closest friends. They’re like family. Gary and Mona are like family. They’re a whole family. They brought me in as family, so it was a little bit different in terms of, you know, I was doing this work because I thought it was so important for our state and to have somebody like him because when you say that he had integrity, he truly had integrity. During those years of my life, It was such a perfect place to start, um, in politics because it, it didn’t make me as jaded as I did become later, but, but you know what I mean? In the beginning to see somebody who’s truly trying to do the right thing and, um, no ego and, um, and yeah, it was, it was really amazing, but having Mona there as well. I mean, they were such a great team and, um, and just treating people like family and really, you know, they were, they had just started their family. So having them in office, when they had a young family to look at those issues that are affecting so many people It was truly eye opening and at the same time while also working for the Clinton administration Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton two of the smartest people, I think I’ve ever met in my life, even to this day. Um, the type of issues that they were tackling truly for families and for, um, especially mothers. Um, it just, like, I don’t know. I think I felt, I, I feel very lucky that those were the, the, um, influences that I had at that time.
MARK WRIGHT 31:49
So, you worked for a while in tech PR, then you ended up at Starbucks and you worked fairly closely with the founder Howard Schultz. I guess he didn’t found it. He was just the early one of the early guys, right? Um, so how did you get, how did you get connected with Starbucks? And, and what, tell me about that.
KATHERINE CHENG 32:07
Yeah, I was doing high tech PR after I left the governor’s office and, um, and a friend of mine who actually worked at the governor’s office with me, she was a very good friend. She had gone to Starbucks, and she said, you know what? There’s this job here in, um, in international, um, reputation management and PR. And I think that you should look at it because I have this, the, the, the hiring manager is this. And, and the way she said it was kind of funny. It was maybe, maybe a compliment, maybe an insult, backhanded compliment, but she said, he reminds me of you. He’s crazy. He talks fast, he walks fast, he like, you know, he just won’t shut up. And so we were laughing and she goes, no, I’m serious. You need to talk to him. And it was true. And so my boss there was seriously this guy who, who, um, he was Chinese Malay and he, he also had a heavy accent and he talked so fast and moved so fast, but we were very in sync because we were both like that. So that’s how I ended up there. And, um, and it was a great experience. I mean, it was, it was such a, um, it was a time when Starbucks was really on its growth trajectory. And, um, and particularly at the time, you know, the couple of years before I left. Um, going into China, China was the big thing. And so having come off working for Gary Locke, um, going to Starbucks where China was the big thing. And then after that, I went to Microsoft when China was still the big thing. I mean, it was just like, it was just perfect timing. And so, at, at Starbucks, because, um, Howard’s focus at that time really veered. And he honed in on China. Um, I was very lucky because I had done, um, I had done work with China, the government, and I helped to, um, I helped to put together what was, what essentially became a state visit, um, for the president of China because the relations with um, the Bush administration were not great and they ended up not doing a state dinner for, for him, which is a big slap in the face when you have a foreign dignitary going to Washington DC, they did a luncheon and they played the wrong anthem, which I don’t know if you know much about protocol, but I don’t believe you make, they make mistakes like that. I know people in protocol, and they just don’t. Um, but, uh, those things get checked over and over again, especially when you’re talking about China and Taiwan, right? And they played the wrong anthem and but so the, the big state visit was here in Seattle hosted by Bill Gates and then and then I was brought in as part of the planning committee by Gary Locke and so Starbucks and um was a big part of it. So, the work that I did there in helping Howard to navigate that, um, really brought me close into his orbit to, to look at, you know, what, what is it that, um, that, that we were doing in China. Um, so that was really amazing. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, China was the big thing.
MARK WRIGHT 35:15
Wow. Well, are you, are you fluent in Chinese, in, in Mandarin or Cantonese?
KATHERINE CHENG 35:18
I’m not fluent. And, and Mandarin is, Mandarin is the, um, so I’m Cantonese, um, my, my parents are Cantonese, but they, my, my mom and dad, um, all my aunts and uncles, they, all of the cousins, we all speak Mandarin, and they made a very distinct. Um, they, they, they did that on purpose. I think one reason I think is because, well, it’s the, it’s the national dialect or the, the international dialect of, of the Chinese dialect. But, um, but I think the other reason is that they could talk about us in Cantonese, and we wouldn’t understand them because it’s so different. But, uh, but so I, I wish that I, I wish that I was, um, fluent. I did go to Chinese school, but I skipped a lot. So, and of course, you know, as as happens, you know, when people grow up, I, I regret it because I wish that I could speak Mandarin fluently, but I, I can speak it, um, conversationally. I can get by. I can get people to restaurants. I can get us to direction, you know, which is important.
MARK WRIGHT 36:22
That’s awesome. So, when you planned that presidential visit, uh, for China, the, um my uh, there was a Microsoft person who was there at that state dinner, right? And noticed you and your role in everything. And that was sort of an open door to how you got to Microsoft, right?
KATHERINE CHENG 36:39
Yeah. Um, there was a, a, a, a man who was, um, heading up the, the China. He was the chief of staff to the president of Microsoft China and his team was planning their part of the, um, the visit and, um, and so he called me after the visit and asked if he could just have some of my time to ask for advice on how to lead his team and, um, and then about 10 minutes into the conversation he said, actually, I’m totally lying. I didn’t call you to get your advice. I called you because I want to hire you and I, um, and I was sort of, I was really taken aback because I, I really loved working with Howard Schultz and I loved Starbucks and it was, you know, one of those points in my life. I was very young and, um, but what, but circumstances kind of there were certain circumstances that happened at Starbucks that that was sort of like, okay, well, I’m open to what you’re telling me. And I said, I don’t want to work at Microsoft. And he said, why? And I said, because I don’t want to go across the bridge. And he said, well, then don’t. And this was the first time you know, people work from home and all this, I, that’s when I first started working from home mostly. And it really kind of changed my life in a way because at the time I was so conflicted about leaving Starbucks because here I was finally working in a position where and I was still in a low position. It wasn’t like I was some high-level person at Starbucks, but I was because like I said, you know that the conversation we had about climbing the ladder. I didn’t play the game at Starbucks. But, um, but you know, even if you don’t play the game, I think people see you for what you are a lot of times and I felt like Howard Schultz did that with me and um and so I was conflicted because I really wanted to work with him and he wanted to work with me but um, but, but when this opportunity came I was also trying to get pregnant and I and so I took this the Microsoft job and I I am not a I’m not a religious person, but I believe that things happen for a reason And, um, and so I was very conflicted about taking this position and you might say that I was even a little bit bummed out at times that I had left Starbucks because I was working from home. I was working for China and, but then I got pregnant, and I got pregnant with twins and then the medical bills came in and I paid nothing. And so, when I look back on it, I feel like things always sort of happened for a reason with me because opportunities would fall in my lap and I couldn’t necessarily see it at the moment at the time, but it became so clear for me. There was a reason that this happened and not just because it was, you know, free medical, but you know what I mean? But, but it was, it was just circumstances and also the growth in, in, in the evolution of my career too.
MARK WRIGHT 39:40
Yeah. How did you end up at Expedia?
KATHERINE CHENG 39:43
So, when I, um, when I left Microsoft, it was another bittersweet thing because they wanted me to move to China. And I could not move to China, not with young infant twins, especially because, you know, the air quality is just horrible and there’s just so much, you know, going on. And, um, and so I decided though, that I didn’t want to find another job in Microsoft. And I was actually applying and interviewing at the Gates Foundation and at Amazon. And I had always thought that I was going to end up at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation because when they started the whole foundation, I was so interested in what they were doing but um, but I you know was also very engaged in my work at Starbucks and so at the time when that opportunity came up. It was amazing because there were four different areas that I was the final candidate for, um, to do PR and they were totally different areas. And it just so happened that the four senior VPs that were hiring, they were gone the next week in Davos. And so they had pushed my interviews to the following week. And I got a call randomly from a recruiter at Expedia. I don’t know how, I don’t, I forgot to even ask her how she even got my information. But, um but we had a, an interesting conversation and she was really fun and we got along very well. And, and I said, oh no, no, I’m not interested in a job. I’m in the finals for these four positions. And I’ve also got this interview at Amazon. And I mean, I was still so young and naive at that point too. And um, and she said to me, you know what, just come out for coffee, just come meet, you know, just come meet the team. And so, I went out and I met the team and I clicked with them right away. And one of them, my, my form, um, former boss, but at that point, my future boss was Kristen Graham, who you had on your show, and we just clicked, and we couldn’t stop laughing. And I just thought, you know what? I want a job where I have a lot of laughter and I can also do things and it was a, it was a fairly new position like they had a position that the person was the, um, community relations. But the conversation that they had with me about this role was that I could really take it and, and make it something bigger. And, and it was all up to me to just drive it. And so, it was a, it was a long week where I had to decide this. And they knew that I had these, you know, four interviews the next week and they called me on Friday, and they said, you have till Monday to make this decision. And I, and I thought about it, and I went, this is the right thing. It just happened.
MARK WRIGHT 42:34
Wow. Um, you spent almost 11 years at Expedia. You did a lot of different things. You worked in community relations, the DEI team. You worked for the chief legal officer. Um, what are you most proud of in terms of your work at Expedia?
KATHERING CHENG 42:51
I think that, so almost 11 years or when I look back, the first five, the, the first four or five years, I kind of feel like, not that they didn’t count, but it was a completely different job because when I had started, I was told that I could build all these things and do all these great things and I did, but there was a limit to it. Um, because it was under HR and, um, and there was a lot of trepidation under HR, um, not wanting to take risks. It’s a global company. I tend to think like this, and I remember a lot of times I would have meetings with my boss, and I would just be like, I want to do this, I want to do this, and I think we could do this. And she’d say, those are great ideas, but we can’t do that right now. And so, she’d say, I’m really happy that you’re so excited about this. And she was so worried about like, you know, tempering that enthusiasm because I was just so tired of, you know, I would do, I would do, um, you know, I, I started a lot of programs that are still in existence today. You know, they have a, an annual, um, month of, month of caring and, um, and giving and all these things. And they’re great, but it’s not like I was, you know, it wasn’t anything special or new. It was just I had creative takes on how to do it and so I would have people say to me, you should be so happy with that. It’s such a great accomplishment. And I took it as, that’s just so cute what you’re doing. Keep doing that. We love the cute stuff. Whereas I was like, I want to take on sustainability. I want to take on the government issues. I want to take, you know, and so I started to do that on my own. Cause there were gaps in the, in the organization and I, the second half of my tenure there is where I really feel like I took off because, and I totally see it as a sec, as a, um, you know, it was a different job, and I was really ready to leave there. And I, I was, I had one on ones with the chief legal officer because I was starting to do local government relations because they didn’t have anybody here doing it. And I knew so many people and I started to help them with Hawaii too because I knew the issues in Hawaii and, um, and they had a lot of different issues coming up in, in both Washington and Hawaii. And I, I went to him, and I said, you know, I’m actually planning on leaving. And he said, what? What can we do? And I said, I don’t think there’s much you can do unless you put me on your team. And he said, give me a, give me a couple of weeks and let me see what I can do. And he did, he put me under his team. And from that point on, I then oversaw not just the employee relate, the employee engagement, the, um, community relations employee, you know, the, the giving the volunteering, but then I got to take on sustainability globally. I got to take on the, um, government initiatives piece where, you know, like the EU had mandates on sustainability or on, on, um, trafficking or, you know, issues that were affecting travel globally. And I was able to say, we need to tackle these head on instead of pretending they don’t exist. And so that’s where I really felt like my second career at Expedia started. And it was amazing.
MARK WRIGHT 46:04
I’d love to get, I mean, I’m looking at the clock and I’m thinking I have so much more I want to cover. But the reason that I talked so much about race in the beginning is you know, your current role with the Seattle Mariners. I’d love to know how you were approached by the Mariners, how you connected with the Mariners to become the Vice President of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and it really sounds like all of these past work experiences really have prepared you to navigate inside a major corporation or a major, you know, business at the level that you are with, with clarity and life experience and, and true wisdom on, on all this stuff. How, how did that happen, Katherine?
KATHERINE CHENG 46:44
Well, the Mariners, so I’ve always wanted to work for the Mariners. I don’t know why, but it was, it’s always been something that, you know, growing up, watching them and, um, and my husband’s a huge, huge, huge fan. And so, and then my kids play baseball, so it was sort of the timing was perfect. But when this opportunity came up, this role of DEI came up, it was the first time this role had ever been, um, you know, at the Mariners. And I don’t see myself as a DEI practitioner. I didn’t see myself as a DEI practitioner. I viewed myself as always looking through the lens of DEI in everything that I did and also, um, working very closely with DEI. Um, because all the areas that I work in, you have to, I, I really believe you have to have that lens. And I think actually every department. So, when this position came up, I had two friends actually independently text me because they knew that I loved the Mariners. And they texted me and they said, there’s a position at the Mariners. You need to go and apply for it. And I texted both of them back and I said, I wish I could, but it’s not D it’s, it’s DEI. I don’t do DEI, right? So, two weeks later, a good friend of mine who actually does DEI for the Seahawks, and she’s the first DEI person for an NFL team. She then contacted me. She called me and she says to me, Kasey, you need to apply for this job. And I worked with her at Expedia, and I said, I think it would be insulting for me to apply for this job because you’ve been doing this work your whole career. And for me to think that I can just go and do it and take on this title. And she said, no. You’ve been doing this work. We did it together and and she said you could do this in your sleep. You need to go and apply, and I said, let me think about it. Let me think about it. So, I had another friend who also does DEI and she contacted me the next day and I thought is there some conspiracy here? Did you talk to, you know, did you talk to Karen? And this other friend of mine said, I was asked to provide three recommendations for this role, and I only gave your name. So please answer their call. Don’t embarrass me. Just answer their call. So, I…
MARK WRIGHT 48:51
Wow, that’s a good friend.
KATHERINE CHENG 48:52
Yeah. So, I did. And as I was talking through the position with them, I made it very clear to them. I do, I am not a DEI practitioner in the traditional sense. I made very clear to them that everything that I do is through the DEI lens, but I would never say that I um, you know, this expert at DEI, but I also laid out how I would do it. Um, I told them I’m not going to, you know, come in and try and put in all these trainings and everything. Trainings will come if they’re needed. I would go in and, and really try to get into every department and encourage every department to look through the DEI lens in everything they do. And so, when I got the position, as with any position, I think, and a new position in an organization, there’s some skepticism. Um, the Mariners is a, um, it’s a, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s not old, old, but it’s, old school, um, in terms of baseball. And, um, and they’ve never had this. And then they’ve had some, you know, there was some history with the Mariners. And, um, and so I also was very cognizant of this role coming at a time after George Floyd, when a lot of companies just started hiring for DEI roles when they didn’t really understand the commitment and the, and many of the people who were hired didn’t have any business doing the job. And I didn’t want to be one of those people who didn’t have any business doing the job, if that makes sense. And then we’ve seen, you know, just in the last year or so when economics has played a big part in all this, those are like the first roles to go. And many of them didn’t really know what to do. So, I didn’t want that to be the case, but, but knowing that it came with that baggage. So, when I started, you know, when you go into rooms and you’re introducing yourself and trying to make relationships, you get kind of the skeptical eye, the side eye, oh, it’s the DEI person. And I would make it very clear to them. I’m not coming here to tell you that you’re doing something wrong or to tell you that you’re, you know, that you’re, you’re perpetuating, um, you know, um, racism or whatever, like I’m not coming to do that. I’m really coming to just help you be better, not help you be better, help the organization be better about the ultimate goal that we have of increasing the fan base, right? Because I really tried, and everything I do, even when I did social impact, it was always about the bottom line. Because if you cannot make a business case for it, people won’t listen. And so, I really tried to make anything that I do not come from a, um, emotional perspective. Sometimes emotion can get into it. But, but, um, but really from what’s best for business. And so that’s how I’ve kind of, um, you know, tried to look at the role. Like, you know, if we’re trying to increase the fan base, you know, who’s the fan? Baseball is the all-American sport, right? Who’s all American these days, right? It looks, all American looks different. Therefore…
MARK WRIGHT 51:56
And it’s changing.
KATHERINE CHENG 51:57
And it’s changing, it’s constantly changing. And so, when you look at the types of things that are happening in the ballpark, you know, trying to increase the, the fan base, well, the fan base, the, the, the population is changing. So therefore, you have to be, you have to be able to pull in and, um, and relate to different types of people. But then in the ballpark, you know, the food matters too. You know, what kind of food are you serving? What kind of programming do you have? What kind of, and, and of course I don’t have anything to do with the players, but you know what? I was so excited when we had Colton Wong, you know, the Asian player, because when Yitro was there, um, it was huge, but he’s from Japan and so when you have a Hawaiian native and you know what I mean, like there’s just certain things that bring more rich culture. And so, um, so it’s so exciting to have that type of thing so that, so that when you’re trying to impact the business side of things, you can um, I, what I try to do is just give a different lens for everybody so that they can see while we’re trying to recruit. This is why I got recruiting because I asked a lot of questions. You know, where are we going to recruit from? Do you have to have baseball experience to do these certain jobs? Why do you have to have baseball experience? Because don’t you want the best person who can do that job and then they can learn the baseball piece? Of course, that’s different in base, in the baseball side of the house but we’re not talking about that because if I was able to impact the recruiting on the baseball side, we’d all be in trouble, right? So, but, but you know what I mean? It’s like appropriate where it’s appropriate. So,
MARK WRIGHT 53:35
Yeah, I think, and Katherine, what I would love to ask you is that I think there’s a lot of misinformation and misconceptions about DEI. And what I would love is that, as you said, you know, post George Floyd, businesses are clamoring to hire people to fill these positions. So, I guess I would love to hear you explain, what should DEI be for a business? Like, what should it be?
KATHERINE CHENG 54:02
So again, I don’t want to claim that I’m the expert on it, but in my mind, what it should be is that your employee base looks like the population that you’re trying to serve and the population where, where you have your businesses, your business or your, you know, the presence. But also, I think that, that in everything that you do, you should be trying to appeal to everybody. It’s, it’s less about DEI. Um, those three words and to me it’s more about inclusion. It’s um because I think that the inclusion piece does it or belonging that maybe doesn’t get as much of the play. Because when you look at diversity and equity numbers come into play right and numbers can be deceiving. Numbers can also drive people to actions that you don’t really necessarily want them to be taking. Um, and sometimes numbers can hide things. You can hide behind the numbers and say, oh, look at how great we’re doing. And then it’s not the case on the other side, right? So I think that if I were to, to, to say, you know, what is it that’s the most important is, is the place that you, the, the place of business that you have, um, the most inclusive, does it make your people feel that they belong there, that they can do their best work? And I’m not talking about bringing your dog to work or, or, you know, being able to show up in your pajamas or what, you know, like there, there are some limits I also have on that. Okay. But I’m talking about, about your ideas. And the experiences that you bring to the table because the number of times that I was dismissed because of my experience, you know, when I would say, excuse me, um, maybe at Starbucks, why are we promoting this thing when it actually women don’t, you know, love that because of this and this and this, and they would kind of say, well, numbers, you know, and I’m just using it as an example, but same thing with travel, right? You know, why aren’t you listening to the people who make the travel arrangement? It’s mostly women and it’s mostly mothers, right? Or, um, or, um, you know, like things like things like, um, you know, in sustainability, the, the, the number of, um, the, the footprint, the environmental footprint, you know, why are we so afraid to put the, the, um, the impact on the site when we know that people aren’t going to make travel decisions that most people are not going to make travel, you know, decisions and say, you know what, I’ve been wanting to go to Greece all my life, but because this footprint is so big, I’m not going to go. I’m just going to go virtually. How many people do you know that would do that? But instead to say, let’s step back and let’s see how we can help people go to Greece and be more sustainable in their travel, be more aware, be more educated. And I feel like with DEI, it’s, it’s, that’s all the same thing where we should just help people to be more educated and be more thoughtful about the roles that they play because every single person in your organization has a responsibility to DEI.
MARK WRIGHT 57:19
Yeah. And to really understand and value and respect everybody, right?
KATHERINE CHENG 57:27
Absolutely. Humanity, these days, I think, is so, it’s so fragile. I mean, I really, it really does feel like we’re in the twilight zone. Going back with all the things, and not to get political, but all the things with the Supreme Court, the elections, and then now with the things that are happening around the world, I, I, I am, so every morning I listen to a, um, a news podcast on the New York times daily. And as I’m listening to this, sometimes I sit and I just go, I swear I have deja vu from when I was watching Phil Donahue or something. You know, it, the topics that we’re talking about, immigration, all these things are coming around. And I think that the more we go backwards in that, the, the more we have to be more thoughtful from a corporate standpoint, from a personal standpoint because there’s so much noise and people forget the history. We cannot forget the history because the minute we forget the history, humanity really goes out the window. Because how is it that we’re at this point where we’re repeating things over and over again? So,
MARK WRIGHT 58:47
Um, as we, I, I hate to wrap this up, uh, because I literally could go for another hour. But Katherine, as, as we kind of wrap things up, something you told me a few weeks ago really stuck with me. And, you know, our mission on the BEATS WORKING podcast is to redeem work. And that is to show that work can be honorable, and it can have a really beautiful impact on the world and a really wonderful impact on the lives of people doing the work. Um, you told me, to me, it’s not about getting to the next level. It’s about impact and whether I’m happy. Is that sort of the definition for you in terms of what redeemed work looks like?
KATHERINE CHENG 59:28
I think so. And especially in this day and age where, um, you know, after COVID there was so, so much of the isolation and, you know, and I think people think that, you know, working from home is the end all be all. But that human connection and to know that not just to know that people can do great work remotely, right? And this is not a commercial for going back to work or anything. It’s just that there’s something about human connection and seeing somebody in front of you, telling you, thank you, what you did really impacted me or seeing the smiles, you know, I’m in baseball. It, in the, in the scheme of things, in what’s happening in the world, it seems like baseballs. Who cares? But we have to care because things like baseball, things like music, things like art, those are the things that keep us connected, right? And even in baseball, they’re, it’s, it’s a job. People work in a job and they work very hard. And my job now is to impact those people and to impact them in a way that makes them feel good, makes them feel like they have a place that they’re, that, that they’re valued because I think at the end of the day, everybody wants to be valued and to, and that’s what I mean by impact also, they want to feel valued and they want to feel like the work that they’re doing matters. Somebody, somebody cares about the work that you’re doing.
MARK WRIGHT 01:01:05
Katherine Cheng. This has been so richly rewarding to spend time with you. And it just, you know, as we think about the career that you’ve had and all the different positions. I think the, the common denominator is the humanity that you brought to each of those positions and just poured yourself into it. And you also, it really seems like you know who you are and what a testament probably to your upbringing, but you know who you are and in all of these jobs, you’ve made your presence known and you made your ideas known and you made a big difference as a result. So, it’s an honor knowing you and uh, keep up the great work and go Mariners huh?
KATHERINE CHENG 01:01:46
Thank you so much, Mark. I really appreciate it because I feel the same about you and what you’re doing with this podcast and sharing these stories and I’m really honored to be a part of it. So, thank you for having me.
MARK WRIGHT 01:01:56
Alright, we’ll see you soon. Thank you. Thanks. I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday and if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING, where we are winning the game of work.
