Sidekick Sessions: Understanding Respect at Work

Welcome to Sidekick Sessions, where we gather the team at WORKP2P for a deep dive on a topic. This month, we’re talking about understanding respect at work.

Respect is one of the foundations of any good workplace, but just what does it mean to respect others on the job?

The reality, according to Dr. Julie Pham, CEO and founder of CuriosityBased, is that respect can mean very different things to different people. It’s subjective, but the key is knowing how to communicate with our colleagues about it.

Dr. Pham’s teachings gave our team a blueprint for understanding others, language to express our own feelings, and a collective hope that all of this can lead to a better workplace for everyone.

Let’s hear it for R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

Resources from the episode:

Connect with Dr. Pham on ⁠LinkedIn⁠ and follow her on ⁠Instagram⁠.
Listen to “R.E.S.P.E.C.T. at Work with Dr. Julie Pham,” our episode with Dr. Pham, ⁠here⁠.
Learn more about CuriosityBased and the work they do ⁠here⁠ and follow them on ⁠Facebook⁠.
Read more about “The 7 Forms of Respect®,” sign up for the course, and buy the book ⁠here⁠.
Watch Dr. Pham’s TEDx talk, “Curiosity as a Practice,” ⁠here⁠.

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Transcript

The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.

Speakers: Dr. Julie Pham, Alysse Bryson, Elan Olsen, Libby Sundgren, Tamar Medford, and Mark Wright

DR. JULIE PHAM 00:00

I think that is actually one of the big misconceptions about my work is that I’m, people are, oh, they’re bringing in, they’re bringing in someone to teach us how to have a respectful workplace. No! The thing is, we can all agree on what respect feels like. Feeling seen, heard, appreciated, acknowledged. What we disagree about is what does respect look like?

MARK WRIGHT 00:27

This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work – the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to Sidekick Sessions, where we gather the team at WorkP2P for a deep dive on a topic, and this month, we’re It’s understanding respect at work. Respect is one of the foundations of any good workplace, but just what does it mean to respect others on the job? The reality, according to Dr. Julie Pham, is respect can mean very different things to different people. It’s subjective, but the key is knowing how to communicate with our colleagues about it. Dr. Pham’s teaching gave our team a blueprint for understanding others, language to express our own feelings, and hope that all of this can lead to a better workplace for everyone. I hope you enjoy our Sidekick Session with Dr. Julie Pham. Welcome to Sidekick Sessions. This is where we take the team that helps put together the BEATS WORKING podcast and other projects at WorkP2P. And we bring in a past guest of the BEATS WORKING podcast to do a deep dive for some shared learning. And today we have Dr. Julie Pham, who had a fantastic episode on the seven forms of respect in the workplace. Julie is in Seattle. She’s the CEO of CuriosityBased, a company. She’s also the author of Seven Forms of Respect. Julie, it’s so great to have you here. I really enjoyed our time when we recorded the original podcast together. But what I’m looking forward to today is with the sidekicks. We are going to really learn a lot about the origins of respect, kind of between our own ears. So, before I turn over the mic to you, I’d love to introduce the sidekicks. Alysse, why don’t you kick us off?

ALYSSE BRYSON 02:20

Hi, everyone. My name is Alysse Bryson, and I am one of the sidekicks here at WORKP2P.

MARK WRIGHT 02:25

Libby.

LIBBY SUNDGREN 02:26

Hello, Libby Sundgren here, another sidekick, um, focuses on content development.

MARK WRIGHT 02:33

Great. Elan.

ELAN OLSEN 02:34

Hi, I’m Elan Olson, and I am the creative sidekick.

MARK WRIGHT 02:39

And last but not least, Tamar.

TAMAR MEDFORD 02:41

Hey, my name’s Tamar Medford and I’m the production sidekick.

MARK WRIGHT 02:45

All right. Julie, what do you want people to know about your work in this space of discussing respect in the workplace? I’d love a little background from you.

DR. JULIE PHAM 02:55

Just that. Well, actually, I’m going to ask you, I’m going to ask all the sidekicks a question first. All right, let’s start that off. Raise your hand if you think you know how to be respectful. Raise your hand if you think you know how to be respectful. All right. Everyone has raised their hand. I don’t think you know how to be respectful.

MARK WRIGHT 03:13

Oh, this is good.

DR. JULIE PHAM 03:14

I know you know how to be respectful. Oh, I know you know how to be respectful today. And this session is not about teaching you how to be respectful because you already know how to be respectful. And I think that is actually one of the big misconceptions about my work is that I’m, people are, oh, they’re bringing in, they’re bringing in someone to teach us how to have a respectful workplace. No! The thing is we can all agree on what respect feels like, feeling seen, heard, appreciated, acknowledged. What we disagree about is what is respect look like? What does it look like to Tamar? What does it look like to Elan? And to Mark and to Libby and to Alysse, there are going to be some that are overlaps and some that are, that are different and you’ll have different stories as to why. So that’s what we’re going to get into today. So, uh, thank you so much for inviting me. This is going to be the first time I’ve ever done something like this, where I’m facilitating a conversation among colleagues in front of other people. So this will, this will be a, a real treat and learning for me. So we’ll just see how this goes. So I also ask for your forgiveness as we, as we try this out. Um, so a little bit about me, my personal story is actually really important to, and, uh, really important to how I ended up creating some forms of respect. Important part of my identity is that I am a Vietnamese boat person. I came to the U.S. with my parents as a two month old baby, uh, in 1979. And my parents founded the first privately owned Vietnamese language newspaper in the Pacific Northwest. Uh, Nguoi Viet Thanh Bac is the Vietnamese name. Northwest Vietnamese News is the English name of the newspaper. I share that because my, uh, my Vietnamese identity, my American identity, those are really important parts of who I am growing up Vietnamese at home, American at school. And I’m going to talk about how we belong to multiple cultures, identities, and communities at the same time. I then, I studied in California and then I went to the UK for my PhD. I got to live in France, Germany, and Vietnam as an adult. All of those places have different, have different expectations around respect. And unconsciously I would adapt and I would, I would adapt and change. And then I came back to Seattle in 2008 to help run my family’s newspaper. This is after I finished up my dissertation. And this is during the great recession. And we all know, we all remember that great recession and the decline of the newspaper industry. And, and we all really struggled and so, and that was the beginning of my community building and bringing together people from really different backgrounds to, uh, to, to collaborate. And I got to tell you, even though I have a company called CuriosityBased, I was not very curious in the beginning because curiosity for academics is very much about outward curiosity. It’s about the pursuit of knowledge, the pursuit of new knowledge. And what I wasn’t doing was looking inward, and I wasn’t actually building relationships. And I was so outcomes focused. I was all about, before, all about the research, all about the, the, the writing. And then when I started doing community building, I realized, oh, there’s a lot of learning that can be done from one another, from just conversations. And so I share this because my community building work informs my team building work. And what I realized is, wow, we can get people who are volunteering their time. Imagine what we can do with people who are paid to work together. And so that’s why I ended up ultimately creating a founding curiosity base in 2021. So seven forms of respect is actually not about training people to be respectful. It’s about being curious about respect. This is a big mind shift for people because we talk about respect as if it is fixed and universal. And yet, if we really think about it, it is dynamic. It is relative, it is subjective, and it’s also contradictory, and that’s because we as humans are contradictory. So seven forms of respect, it’s, it’s about getting curious about respect. And so I think of curiosity as a practice. We liken this to meditation. It looks really easy and yet it’s quite hard. It looks easy to be still, and yet it’s quite hard. And there are times where I don’t want to practice curiosity. I am not interested in what Mark has to say because he is wrong, right? And that’s what I’m really thinking, right? And so that’s going to happen. And so if we can actually acknowledge that there are times where I don’t want to practice, you don’t want to practice, that means it moves us away from perfectionist thinking. I think in the workplace right now, when people talk about culture, we talk about belonging. It’s just, we’re going to make mistakes. Do we still belong after that? When we, when we messed up? That’s, I think of actually, we talk a lot about psychological safety. I actually think asking questions, is the indicator of psychological safety. Do people feel safe asking questions? So I’m going to talk about the three elements of practicing curiosity and how it relates to respect. And then what we’re going to get to do is I’m going to take you through a couple of rounds, uh, the sidekicks through a couple of rounds of, of this, of practicing curiosity through thinking about it through this lens of respect. So the three elements are first it’s self awareness, second, relationship building, and third, clear communication. So what I mean by that is the first one is self awareness. This is how do I be curious about myself? How do I practice inward curiosity? How do I ask myself questions? How do I think about respect? What’s that based on? Who taught me that? That’s that self awareness. The second one is relationship building. So this is how do I be curious about other people? That’s the outward curiosity. And also, let them be curious about me. I have to share my stories too. So Tamar, I’m going to ask you questions, and I’m also going to share myself. And you know what that is? Reciprocity, back and forth. I’m sure you’ve all been part of conversations that where someone is asking you all these questions and you might even feel really good and interesting, and yet you realize, oh, you didn’t learn anything about them at the end. how do you have a relationship when it’s just one way? A lot of people, I hear people say, oh, it’s not my job to educate people. I’m not looking for an education, I’m looking for engagement. So that’s why that second one is how do I also be curious about how Libby thinks about respect and Libby, I’m going to share how I think about it. I’m going to react to what your stories are and I’m going to share my stories with you and then allow you to react and interpret mine and that back and forth is reciprocity. That’s how we build relationships by knowing one another. And the third element of practicing curiosity is clear communication. So this is how do we listen to understand. How do we ask questions when we don’t understand? And how do we tell stories? How do we give specific examples? So, when I ask, I often in workshops I’ll poll people, how well do you think across these three different elements, making time for self reflection, relationship building, listening, asking questions, sharing clear examples, and I’ll ask them, how do your colleagues rank? Check all the ones that they’re not good at. And then check, the ones that you’re not good at listening often comes up as other people aren’t good at it, but I’m pretty good at it. So that goes back to the self awareness part, right? So there’s listening, there’s asking questions. 70 percent of people in the workplace actually say they face barriers asking questions. In my work, we’ve determined eight reasons why people don’t ask questions, including I don’t want to waste people’s time. I don’t want to look stupid. I, um, I don’t want people to think my boss didn’t prepare me for this. Lots of different reasons. And then they’re sharing specific examples. And so relating this back to respect often when people can talk in abstracts. So I’ll give you the example of a punctuality. Oftentimes when I say, well, what does respect look like to you? And they’ll say, oh, well, it’s about being on time. Punctuality is really important. Why is that important? Because it’s respectful. Well, why is it respectful? Because it is, that’s what you’re supposed to do. And instead, what are the clear stories that are associated with it? Because people will remember what your stories are, not just what you’re at. They they’ll remember your why it’s not about remembering just what the forms of respect are. And so just to recap there, that is self awareness. Relationship building and clear communication. And also a fun fact with self awareness, most people think that they’re self aware and yet only 10 to 15 percent of them actually fit that criteria. Studies have shown this. And also if you talk to someone who says I’m always self aware, that’s the person who is not self aware, right? Because it’s also this practice of curiosity is I didn’t know that about me. I’m surprised I had that reaction. If I’m surprised, that means there’s something I didn’t know about me. And so we actually try to encourage people to delight in being surprised rather than hiding it. Oh, there’s still more to know. We can even be mysteries to ourselves. So, um, so those are, that’s what we’ll be. So today, what, what I’m going to lead you through is, is the self awareness exercises. Uh, when I do that poll, I was telling you about what, what people think about their colleagues and what they think about themselves. Oftentimes people say we, where they both agree is actually making time for self reflection. They’ll say, my colleagues don’t make time for self reflection, and I don’t make time for self reflection. How many mishaps can be prevented if we just paused, we just took a bit of time to pause. And um, and with respect, there’s the difference between disrespect and lack of respect. Disrespect is actually intentional. It’s, Tamar, I know you didn’t like it and I did it anyway. Ha ha ha. Right? But maybe Alysse told me every time I came late to her meetings that it’s not a big deal. So, and inside at least is actually seething, but that’s a lack of respect because I didn’t know that. And maybe Alysse actually said it was okay, right? So just to know the difference and that’s just a pause when we’re feeling disrespected to pause and go, is this disrespect or is this lack of respect? And either way, we should actually then go and ask and go figure it out. So, yes, those are the. So, those are the main things. Oh, and I’ll actually say one other thing. I know that, Elan, you took a, you took the quiz, right? There’s the seven forms of respect quiz. And that is not meant to be, and you always like these forms. And you do prioritize these forms. Another misconception about the seven forms of respect is that it works like Myers Briggs or Enneagram or one of those. Or even, actually, even in five, I would say five love languages is, um, is a little more, uh, consistent. With respect, respect is dynamic, constantly changes depending on who we’re interacting with in the context. Am I, am I working with my team or am I working with a bigger organization? Am I talking to a client or to a vendor? Hierarchy, power dynamics is a big part in work, work relationships. And so it’s going to change and we’re actually, are we contradictory or are we actually flexing? To the, uh, to the situation. And so actually with what the, with the quiz and with our assessment, we want it to actually help people gain some self awareness about how these behaviors, what are we actually doing most of the time? What do we actually care about? Does it, does it actually must matter to us? Is that a must, a could or won’t. That’s practicing a self awareness and that’s practice that first practice of curiosity. So, I’m going to tip the first exercise, and the first exercise is self reflection on who and what influenced how we think about respect, and this is personal. We all have these different stories, and again, this is, if we can share the stories. Then it will help people understand and remember more. And, um, and we all belong to multiple cultures, communities, and identities at the same time. And they’re tugging at us in different ways, right? I’m a firstborn. Being an oldest child is a really, oh, I see Alysse nodding. Yeah. Mm hmm. Right. Versus like an only child or a middle child or being part of a big family or a small family. Did you have to fight? To get your words in or not, then also Vietnamese, I’m American, grew up in the Pacific Northwest. I’m a Gen Xer. I’m an employer. So these are all these different parts of my identity that will then influence how I think about respect. So there are the seven forms and for this, the purposes, you don’t have to know all of them, but I’ll just, I’ll just go through them. It’s, uh, we use the acronym PPICCAA, P-P -I-C-C-A-A, and it stands for Punctuality Procedure, uh, Information, Candor, Consideration, Acknowledgement and Attention. And so for me, candor is very important. And one of the reasons why is because when I was in college, I had this professor who would just tear up my writing. He literally said, your writing is like vomit. And, and actually, I really felt he wanted me to get better though. I mean, he had a very tough way of doing it. So he just went in and then, and then when I went to grad school, I had this professor who was so, and this was in the UK, so he’s just, oh, everything is lovely. And he’s like, no, come on, give it to me. I can handle this. And I actually found out from one of his early students, one of his early PhD students, that he was so tough on her that one day she just broke down and cried. And he said, what’s wrong? It’s just, isn’t there anything good? He’s like, no, there are so many great things. I just thought that you, that we should just work on what needs to be improved. So he adjusted. And by the time I studied with him, he had kind of gone on to this other end. Do you see how we will change and evolve too, depending on our experiences with people? Because we had a very different, his early student versus me who came to him about 10 years later, we had really different experiences. So with that, I’m going to ask you who and what in your life influenced how you think about respect? By sharing a story. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna call on, uh, Elan first.

ELAN OLSEN 18:36

I don’t know how this relates to work, but it’s the story that keeps coming to my mind. And it’s one of those things that I find myself really annoyed by other people that don’t, um, have the same self awareness that I do, obviously. Um, my mom definitely influenced how I view and receive respect. And one of the things that I think about a lot is in the grocery store, I used to get snatched up pretty much every time we were in the grocery store for getting too close to the person in front of me in line. And I wasn’t trying to be in their business, I was looking at the candy bars, I was reading the magazines, but do not crowd that person in front of you was a huge thing that I, to this day, if kids get too close to me in the grocery line, I’m like, somebody get your goblin. So I, personal space was definitely something that was important to my family. I wasn’t only child at the time. So, you know, not being up in everybody’s business was a really important way that I could show respect by respecting people’s personal space. So that’s the story that keeps coming to my mind.

DR. JULIE PHAM 19:45

And Elan, does that also translate to personal space in terms of, asking questions to like, oh, I don’t want to ask this because it might be too sensitive. Or is that really just a physical?

ELAN OLSEN 19:57

No, I, I definitely guard, um, questions that I ask based on context. So how that person that I’m asking is feeling at the time, how well I know that person, all those kinds of things. So I, I definitely think it translates over to how I approach people with questions. Yeah.

DR. JULIE PHAM 20:17

Thank you. Libby, what about you?

LIBBY SUNDGREN 20:20

You know, I couldn’t think of a specific instance, I guess, that taught me what I think respect is, but the question, it really, uh, made me think about respect throughout my work life and what that has felt and looked like and how it’s changed. And, you know, I think as I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten less sensitive, um, I think in a good way because I can be very sensitive and take things very personally and to heart. Um, but also less defensive. And I, I think it’s in large part due to our work environment and the encouragement of open communication and open thinking and making mistakes. And I just, for a large part of my life, went into work feeling guarded and like any kind of criticism was a direct, you know, reflection of me not doing a good job or, you know, I might get fired or something, which are maybe the experiences that I had, um, that shaped the way I thought about respect, you know, kind of being, and, you know, not necessarily volatile, but emotionally volatile or, um, you know, really competitive types of environments. Um, you know, my first real job was, you know, kind of right in the middle of the recession and then through that. And then my second long term role was, um, you know, during the pandemic. So I spent, you know, 15 years thinking, am I, is this the week that I’m going to get fired, which is like a hard, hard way to like, it’s made me reflect on many instances where I thought were really interesting, right? I can see now, like, this was this person trying to be, this was their version of respect. You know, I worked with a colleague who clarity is kindness, was there. Key phrase, but the clarity that I got felt not felt kind of hurtful. Um, but I can look back on it now and see that that was um their form of respect.

DR. JULIE PHAM 22:40

Mm-Hmm. Thank you Libby.

LIBBY SUNGREN 22:41

So, yeah, so it was an interesting question. It was lots of reflection for me. So thank you.

DR. JULIE PHAM 22:48

Yeah. And it’s making me think about how I’m having your longest employment be during these financially, economically vulnerable times for everyone and how then that, that, uh, what feels like candor or constructive feedback can actually feel like there’s penalties or there’s, uh, there’s a, there’s actual consequences that would be, um, material consequences to that too.

LIBBY SUNDGREN 23:12

Totally. Yeah.

DR. JULIE PHAM 23:13

Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Thank you. Alysse, what about you? Who and what in your life have influenced how you think about respect? Just a specific example.

ALYSSE BRYSON 23:22

I think a specific example would be my mom. Uh, and what is coming up for me is when I got to the age where I was starting to babysit other kids and she sat me down and she was like, here’s how to be a good babysitter because she had had babysitters for myself and my sister over the years. So she used them as examples. She’s like, the ones that I always want to hire over and over again are the ones that go above and beyond. So after the kids go to bed, like do the dishes, vacuum, do anything you can on the job to be above and beyond. Be helpful, maximize your time. You shouldn’t just be sitting around waiting to be told what to do. Just be proactive and, and do more than is what expected. And I think if I look at the thread through all the jobs I’ve had, um, in adulthood, I think that I can honestly say that I have looked around in many of those situations, maybe not a hundred percent of the time, but always been like, if I don’t have something to do, I find something, I find another way to stay busy. I don’t just hang out by the water cooler.

DR. JULIE PHAM 24:30

Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Thanks Alysse. And so your first job babysitting. You learned on the job. Yes. And, you know, and also so that it’s a consideration is, uh, one of the forms that’s actually the trickiest. Because this one is about interacting with someone based on what you think they want and need. You’re not asking them. You’re not asking them, do you want me to wash your dishes and vacuum? I think this is going to delight you though. And so when that goes well, great. And then another person to be like, I feel so uncomfortable with someone cleaning in my space, right? And so, and, and that can be tricky because if someone doesn’t like it, then they can feel that it’s not respectful. But if they like it, then they can feel it’s respectful. And that’s, you can’t control what the other person is thinking with that one, we always say, it’s the thought that counts. And in this case, your intention to give them something more is, that’s what we, that’s the, that’s the consideration part. Thanks, Alysse. Uh, Tamar, what about you?

TAMAR MEDFORD 25:32

Well, first of all, I think I’m very fortunate that at the age of one we moved from the Netherlands to Canada because Canadians are just known for being nice, so that’s probably been part of my influence, but, you know, I think it started off early from my parents, I mean, specifically my dad, because he always kind of, he’s very charismatic. He, you know, taught me to be polite and, and to listen to people and basically to read the room, although at the time I didn’t understand that. And I think, you know, as I got older and got into the workforce, I really learned from watching leaders do the wrong things or treat people with disrespect and be almost intentional about it. Um, you know, and, and the example I can think of is working with, uh, someone who had a really tough life and watching one of the leaders trying to be funny, but almost bullying and the way that they were talking to this person and knowing now what I do about emotional intelligence and stuff, it’s really learning what do other people like in terms of respect and, you know, making sure and, you know, you had talked about it in the interview with Mark is that we always think that we should treat people like we like to be treated. But that doesn’t mean that that’s how they like to be treated. And I think that’s where something like emotional intelligence comes into play. Is I’ve sat and watched people and how others interact with them, you know, and it’s learning, like, I wonder what’s going on with that person right now, you know, like that their respect at that moment could even look different than it does on a regular day to day. So that was kind of the example I thought of. Um, Just because, you know, I always, I try to read the room. I try and get to know someone and ask questions. So I know how I can respect them better.

DR. JULIE PHAM 27:22

Yeah. And so often people who’ve lived in different countries and different cultures will understand, oh, we have to adapt and that’s not necessarily about. In this country, we always do this. In this context, we always do this. It’s actually just that intuitive, oh, the adapting. And that’s actually one of the things we want to do with some forms of respect. It’s actually just about adapting and to being, trying to be aware. And Tamar, you also brought up the negative example, because we can see something and be like, oh, I don’t want to do that, right? So it’s not always about, oh, they modeled what I should do. It’s actually, sometimes it’s like they modeled what I shouldn’t do. And, and something else you said was, uh, that person who was, who you witnessed bullying someone else. I can also imagine a another situation where it’s just, oh, that, that boss is treating two employees differently. And maybe they’re from the outside. They’re just, oh, that doesn’t, oh, for example, one male report, one female is really buddy, buddy. And just with the guy, but so gentle with a woman. And, and obviously he’s playing into some kind of stereotypes about, and so it can get tricky. And so that it’s just, all these different layers of interpretations, which means we can never really know. And oftentimes, they don’t even know. So you got two multiple, all these people who don’t know, so. Mark, what about you? What is who and what in your life influence how you think about respect?

MARK WRIGHT 28:52

When I was a kid, uh, a saying in my family that came from my grandparents on my mom’s side was, if you can’t say something nice about someone, don’t say anything at all. And this was like, this was an ironclad rule in my house and we would get in trouble if we disparage someone. So that was the benchmark of what respect was. Don’t sit, you know, not saying negative things about somebody. But the reverse of that is that if someone does say something negative, that’s clearly a sign of disrespect and the other really big turning point for me, Julie, is about 20 years ago, I took part in a, uh, communication styles workshop, uh, to train us how to lead these workshops. And what I discovered was I’d been operating my whole life, assuming that other people communicated the way I do. And my communication style is color-coded by Rhonda Hillier. She’s in the Seattle area here. I’m a blue and blues communicate to build relationships. Browns are very literal-minded people and they only communicate to get information from the other people. So I would be offended if my brother would come up and just bark something at me, not asking how my day was, hey, it’s good to see you. And none of the social, you know, glue, uh, that I believe, you know, relationships should be, should be, uh, done. Um, and so I, I spent a lot of time being offended when it was, when it was no, no offense intended on the other party. It was just my interpretation. So about 20 years ago, that was a huge turning point for me.

DR. JULIE PHAM 30:16

Yeah. And that really speaks to how, how we think about respect can evolve over time because we are interacting with different people and we also change. And here’s, if we changed, that means other people can change too. Sometimes we think that we can, we’re the only ones who are allowed to change, but other people aren’t. And we, so sometimes we’ll hold grudges and, and, oh, maybe we are all changing at different paces. So this is, so that’s actually one of my first, my favorite questions to warm up a conversation around respect, to really get people to reflect. And as you were probably listening to your, to their other sidekick stories, you’re just, oh, I have a, I have an interpretation of that, or that’s not what I was taught, or that is something similar, or there’s a tweak on that. So I invite you later on to kind of, as you heard each other’s stories to, to, to follow up and to comment on that. I want to take you through one other exercise and that is, um, that is about what I call the rubber band rule. So we grew up, a lot of us grew up thinking about the golden rule, which is treat people the way you want to be treated. And the problem is, what if they don’t want to be treated the way you want to be treated? There’s the platinum rule, which is treat people the way they want to be treated. The issue there is, what if they don’t tell you? What if they don’t know or they’re too embarrassed to tell you? What if it changes? And what if the way they want you to treat them, you don’t like that? So there’s what I call the rubber band rule. And this is, and I’m holding a rubber band here, stretching a rubber band. And this is about, we actually are all capable of stretching and accommodating other people. And, and so I know Libby really likes this. So I’ll do it for Libby, even though I don’t really like it, but I’ll do it for Libby and then Alysse and Libby together, man, I have to give them compliments all the time, right? And then I’m, I’m stretching and I’m stretching and stretching. And you know what happens when we stretch? We snap and break. So the rubber band rule is about what are our breaking points? What’s going to make me snap? So the question to each of you is reflecting what, what do you think is something that makes you, what’s a breaking point for you? Now we can all stretch, right? We can all do it, but it’s just like, oh man, if I keep getting this again and again, I am going to snap. So Alysse, I’m going to call on you first.

ALYSSE BRYSON 32:35

I will snap when I don’t have boundaries and I don’t say no enough. I just say yes to everyone because I’m a people pleaser. And then I don’t get enough time, sleep. I don’t have any downtime or oscillation time. And I’m like, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. And I run out of stamina. And then the people that I said I was showing up for, I’m like kind of crabby or I’m not even fully present because I just, I, I say yes to too many things. And so it, it always catches up with me eventually. Uh, yeah.

DR. JULIE PHAM 33:13

So, it’s the saying, yes, cause you think that people want you to say yes. Yeah.

ALYSSE BRYSON 33:17

Yeah. Yeah Yes. Yes.

DR. JULIE PHAM 33:21

That is going to, and so now you can all watch for Alysse and if she’s saying yes, really push her if she means that or not. What do you, Elan?

ELAN OLSEN 33:31

I’m kind of thinking about access. Um, I feel like I snap when, and I’m thinking of a particular, um, example. Um, I feel like I snap when I’ve made efforts to accommodate the other party’s style of receiving respect, and I feel like I’ve been clear about what my style would be, and the other party doesn’t make an effort to accommodate my style at any given point, so I feel like I’m constantly accommodating. I’m being clear that it’s an accommodation and that I don’t really like showing respect in that way, um, but I feel like I’m not, um, getting that reciprocated. So, for example, I’ve got family members who are wanting to be in constant communication. Lots of text messages, multiple group chats. Um, no more. Um, and I appreciate that they feel very respected by having constant touch points, having acknowledgement, being in communication, having time spent, and energy spent with me together. And for me, I am like, you’re asking me for too much attention. It’s not respecting my energy and my time when I’m saying, hey, I don’t have the energy time to give you this attention all of the time. So that was really long winded, but I feel like that’s, that’s how I snap.

DR. JULIE PHAM 35:04

Yeah. Thank you. That’s great. Cause it’s just like, hey, I’m stretching for you. I need to see you stretch a little bit for me too. Mark, what about you?

MARK WRIGHT 35:13

My general rule of thumb is to extend respect to everyone that I meet. I just sort of have developed this, um, strategy of giving people the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. I think when my breaking point happens when people become too emotional or irrational in, in an interaction, um, that causes me to disengage. And, and my breaking point really is when that interaction becomes abusive. So when it’s clear that it’s no longer about conveying information, when it’s turning more into something of you know, language as a weapon or just simply trying to, to tear me down or hurt me or something like that. That’s when I really, that’s when I really have to just disengage and snap.

DR. JULIE PHAM 36:00

Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Thank you, Mark. Libby and then Tamar.

LIBBY SUNDGREN 36:04

Mine is actually very similar to Alysse. Um, I’m also like to say yes to everything. And I just think as a holistic thing at home and at work, and it’s also, you know, I’m a total people pleaser, but I like taking care of people. And I think that’s probably, you know, one of my, you know, my strongest love language is like taking care of people is how I show that I respect them and care for them and um, and I’m not very good at asking for help or, or recognizing like there’s too much on my plate. I’m not going to be able to do all this. So like, who can I ask to do other things? Because I don’t want to inconvenience anyone and I can just do it. They don’t need to. And so the same, I just get overwhelmed, overloaded, and then I get either, like, I do things in a very quiet, huffy, kind of passive aggressive manner. So I’ll do them, but I just kind of am like, sighing really loudly. Um, or, or I get, um, really cranky and kind of snappy. So, yeah, that’s kind of my rubber band moment.

DR. JULIE PHAM 37:22

Yeah, so you, you actually like to say yes, but then at some point you will get that it’s too much.

LIBBY SUNDGREN 37:29

Yeah. Yeah.

DR. JULIE PHAM 37:30

Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. And so, and I think actually for both Libby and Alysse, it really kind of gets at that consideration part, which at least you kind of mentioned earlier, what you were, what you were taught when you’re younger too. It’s just like, well, what would they want? Well, they wouldn’t want me to say yes.

LIBBY SUNDGREN 37:45

Totally. I babysat too. And I always cleaned all the things, did the laundry. Yeah, I was part of that club.

DR. JULIE PHAM 37:54

Tamar, what about you? What’s your breaking point?

TAMAR MEDFORD 37:57

Uh, I would say it used to actually be I was a hell yes girl. Like it wasn’t just a yes. It was hell yes, but you know the more I thought about that question, it’s really when I am communicating with someone or working with someone and you know various um, areas of my life, and I know everybody can have a bad day. I know that some people can be rude or mean because there’s stuff going on in their lives, but when I’ve had continued interactions that are like that, I eventually reach a breaking point because I can be very compassionate and accepting and understand, you know what, there might be something going on with this person, like maybe they just need a little love. But at a certain point, when it’s outright disrespectful behavior, or what I perceive to be disrespectful, there’s only so much that I can tolerate of that. And then I will hit a breaking point where I don’t want to deal with that person anymore. And I just like, it’s hands off. And I’m also an empath. So, you know, when I see other people doing that, the bullying example I brought up, that’s why I think I was so, I’m so passionate about that is because I want to see people be, you know, treated well, and respected like they need to be. So, um, yeah, I don’t like mean people. Maybe that’s the Canadian as well.

DR. JULIE PHAM 39:16

Thank you, Tamar. And so you can see that all of you have these different, or some of you had a couple of similar, the breaking points and, and, reasons for that. That goes back to the clear communication and the self-reflection of what this is. Now you’ve all heard each other’s. Are there any comments that you want to make about, or, uh, about, or con questions about other people? I know Libby commented on Alysse. Is there anyone else who wants to comment? Yes, Mark. And then, Elan.

MARK WRIGHT 39:46

Um, hearing Libby and Alysse, uh, verbalize that, it now is really making sense. You know, I’ve, I’ve known them for a while now, but that’s, you guys are, you just nailed it. That you love solving problems, you love helping people, but now that I know that, that can cause a breaking point if it goes too far, that gives me some new insight as to who you are as people. I mean, that’s why we love you guys, because you’re always like, yes, I can help you do that or whatever. And you’re, you’re just wonderful to be around for that reason. But that blessing is also the curse, you know, if it goes too far, but I really appreciate how you both described that.

DR. JULIE PHAM 40:21

Elan.

ELAN OLSEN 40:22

I just wanted to say, I keep thinking one time I let an acquaintance stay with me for a week while she was visiting from Canada and she thought that it would be really awesome to help me clean, but she folded and organized all my underwear. And ever since then, I have not found it very respectful when people clean my house. So now I have shifted to don’t touch my stuff or I will fight you. But I do want to say kitchen-wise. Yes. Always leave the kitchen cleaner than when you found as a caveat to my don’t touch people’s underwear.

MARK WRIGHT 41:08

That wasn’t Tamar. Was it?

TAMAR MEDFORD 41:10

Not a Canadian thing?

ELAN OLSEN 41:12

I’ll never tell.

ALYSSE BRYSON 41:14

Can I jump? Can I jump in as a person who is just realizing she has no boundaries?

DR. JULIE PHAM 41:22

You folded underwears?

ALYSSE BRYSON 41:24

I have, I have, I flew down I flew down once to either Arizona or Texas where a boyfriend lived. Um, and while he was at work, I took it upon myself to rearrange his entire closet from lights to darks and pants here and shorts over here and t shirts over there and his underwear. And I’m now realizing maybe I shouldn’t have done that without permission.

ELAN OLSEN 41:49

I think maybe if it’s a boyfriend, it’s, you maybe have a little bit of wiggle room for sure.

DR. JULIE PHAM 41:56

Well, here’s the thing. It’s all relative. It is all relative. There could be the boyfriend who doesn’t like that because it’s a very particular way and we don’t know. And I want you to think about the rubber band, how loose or tight is that depending on the context, right? With your family versus at work. Cause the point here isn’t to have be loose all the time. Like, oh, I’ll go with the flow. Cause sometimes it’s like, no, here’s my tight rubber band. I’ve got my boundaries. Don’t push them. Don’t stretch me. I’m not going to stretch that much. And it’s just really about knowing that. And then how do we also share that with others and then learn from others what theirs are as well, going back to that relationship building. So, well, oh, yes, Tamar.

TAMAR MEDFORD 42:39

I just wanted to say that, you know, it’s also interesting working with other yes people. Because, where and here’s a point where it’s great that we all know this about each other, because we need to call each other out when we’re doing this, but we get very excited about what we do sometimes, and so we’ll take on all this stuff, and we’re so excited. And then it’s like, whoa, okay, we’re doing too much now. So I, you know, love that Libby and Alysse said that and, you know, Alon jumps right in there with us, but I think she’s probably the best one to set those boundaries. So thank you for doing that, Elan, because I, I need that sometimes.

DR. JULIE PHAM 43:16

And now, you know, you can have this language with each other. Hey, are you about to, is this, are we reaching your breaking point right now? I know you’re stretching, but is this breaking point time or, because no one wants their co-workers to break, right? So, well, with that, uh, so, how you can use this in your think about how you can use this, these prompts to continue continually to actually and say, uh, in your work life, in your home life. Um, and that it can change.

MARK WRIGHT 43:44

So Julie, people listening are probably wondering how do I use this in my workplace? Because I think a lot of us will go through a seminar, make this huge announcement at work. All right, everybody. This is what we’re going to do. But what’s, what’s a practical way of, of, of taking this thinking and integrating it into our workplace?

DR. JULIE PHAM 44:03

I think that first question of who and what have has influenced how you think about respect. It’s a really great way to, to be an icebreaker either with people, you know, or you don’t know, actually. It’s a, it’s a really great way to get to know one another. So there’s that. And then even when you’re about to enter a tense, something that could be challenging to even talk about, hey, what are the things, what are our breaking points? What’s going to make me snap in this situation? Uh, and it could also just be, hey, let’s get to know each other more and, and ask this question as well. And you can even do this with your family too, not just at work, but hey, let’s talk about this. Cause it’s, well, it’s a framework to give people language. So it’s not about, I need respect, which kind of insinuates you’re not respecting me. It’s actually we’re all respecting one another, it’s just we’re interpreting, it looks different. And so that’s, that’s the real benefit is, hey, let’s assume that we all are respecting one another and we just have different ideas of what that looks like and, and to be able to communicate that.

MARK WRIGHT 45:10

So you teach this to companies and organizations, Julie, if people want more information on, you know, your book or bringing you in, what’s the best way to get ahold of it?

DR. JULIE PHAM 45:18

Yes. The best way is to go to curiositybase.com or formsofrespect.com to find out more. And then you can message me. I’m actually very active on LinkedIn as well. If you want to get, we have a lot of free resources and content on our YouTube channel. I do lots of short videos too. And you can also check out the, the book.

MARK WRIGHT 45:38

All right. Um, anybody else on the team want to chime in?

LIBBY SUNDGREN 45:41

I do want to say one thing, hearing all of your guys’s great examples about where you learned respect. I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like I’m disrespecting my parents by not thinking of anything. And that’s a really good one that I should have shared. It was, you know, my dad, I remember as a child, my parents both worked at the hospital. I’m from a small town. So we were familiar with all the people. We kind of ran around there after school. They didn’t let me in the OR, but I was, you know, friends with a lot of the employees and stuff. And as much as you can be as a young child, but, um, I, always distinctly remember my dad having like long conversations with the janitorial staff and it was very, um, you know, it was something my dad, I remember him talking to me about how he just thought it was really important that you treat the janitor the same way as you treat the CEO and, um, you know, nobody’s better than anybody else and everybody, you know, deserves to feel important and um that is one way I learn respect, so.

DR. JULIE PHAM 46:50

Thanks Libby. And this is what happens when we share our stories. It sparks memories and other people because maybe you come into the conversation, you’d, I don’t have a story, but then he’s just like, oh, all these other people had stories. I do have stories. So, yes. Thanks Libby.

MARK WRIGHT 47:07

Julie, in all your travels, do you have a story of really learning a big lesson of respect based on cultural differences.

DR. JULIE PHAM 47:16

My favorite is when I was in Vietnam, I think I may have shared this story on the show, but, uh, when I was in Vietnam, I would arrange to meet up with friends, Vietnamese friends, and they would cancel on me last minute. And I was like, what’s going on? They must know. Why am I, why are they waiting until the last minute? And so I finally asked a Hanoian friend who lived in the UK. He’s like, why is this happening? He said, oh, they know, they know. It’s just the reason why they’re waiting until the last minute is because they want to convey it’s an emergency. If they tell you ahead of time, They’re making a choice and the choice is not to be with you. So I was like, oh, so they’re trying to be respectful. It’s like, yeah, it’s just an emergency. That’s why they can’t be with you. And it was like, oh, okay. So that really helped me understand that it can be relative and it helped me be a lot more forgiving. And also I kind of let all these. I, punctuality is something I really care about. And yet when I was in Vietnam, I’m like, well, if other people aren’t going to care, then I’m going to be okay too. So, uh, so yeah, that’s, uh, one of my favorite examples.

MARK WRIGHT 48:28

Well, Dr. Julie Pham, CEO of CuriosityBased and author of Seven Forms of Respect. It’s been so much fun spending time with you and learning from you. Keep up the great work. Thanks for being with us.

DR. JULIE PHAM 48:39

Thank you.

MARK WRIGHT 48:41

I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. And if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of Beats Working, where we are winning the game of work.