In this episode, we speak with Rais Bhuiyan, who recounts his harrowing experience of being a hate crime survivor post-9/11 and the journey of forgiveness that led to the creation of World Without Hate. We discuss how his extraordinary story inspires empathy, understanding, and the power of forgiveness to overcome hate and violence.

Key Takeaways:

Life-Altering Event: Rais Bhuiyan shares the traumatic experience of being shot in the face by a white supremacist ten days after 9/11 and the extensive recovery process that followed.
Path to Forgiveness: Despite severe injuries and emotional trauma, Bhuiyan chose the path of forgiveness, even launching a campaign to save his attacker from death row.
World Without Hate: Discover how Rais and his wife Jessica founded a nonprofit organization to promote empathy, forgiveness, and kindness, as well as their documentary, “Pain and Peace,” which aims to debunk myths and humanize victims and perpetrators of hate crimes.

Guest:

Rais Bhuiyan, founder of World Without Hate, survivor of a hate crime, and advocate for forgiveness and empathy.

Resources Mentioned:

Organization: ⁠World Without Hate⁠
Film: ⁠Pain and Peace⁠
LinkedIn: ⁠Rais Bhuiyan⁠
Facebook: ⁠Rais Bhuiyan⁠
Video: ⁠United We Stand Summit at the White House⁠

Quotes:

-“Forgiveness isn’t a sign of weakness; it’s a powerful tool to reclaim your peace.” – Rais Bhuiyan

-“Empathy can build bridges where there was once hate.” – Host Mark Wright

Listener Challenge:

This week, try to engage in a conversation with someone from a different background than yours. Share your experiences and reflections with us on social media using #BeatsWorkingShow.

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Transcript

The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.

[00:00:00] Mark Wright: Rais Bhuiyan, welcome to BEATS WORKING. It’s so great to have you on the show. I’ve been looking forward to this.

[00:00:05] Rais Bhuiyan: Very delighted to be here with you, Mark.

[00:00:07] Mark Wright: So Rais, let’s talk about, I mean, the reason that I wanted to have you on the show is that your life’s work now stems from an unbelievable tragedy in your own life. And it’s, not like ordinary life work by any stretch of the imagination. You and your nonprofit and your wife and your team, you’ve started a movement to try to teach empathy as a skill to school kids and also to teach empathy to the general public as a skill set because you’ve lived, what the value of forgiveness and empathy can do.

[00:00:42] Mark Wright: So you are the founder of World Without Hate. You’re originally from Bangladesh. We met, I want to say maybe 2017, 2018, when, when I was a president of the Rotary Club of Seattle, my programs VP, who was in charge of booking our programs every [00:01:00] week, saw your story on CBS Sunday morning, and he phoned me immediately and said, This is an unbelievable story.

[00:01:08] Mark Wright: This, we’ve got to try to get this guy to come out and speak to our club. So you flew out to Seattle and I met you. And I’ve told the story before, Rais, but I think it’s worth repeating. The day that I met you, I said to myself, this is one of the most extraordinary human beings I’ve ever met in my life.

[00:01:25] Mark Wright: And I still believe that to this day, Rais. So yeah. , so let’s, there’s a lot to unpack here, but I want to start with your childhood in Bangladesh. Give me an idea of what childhood was like. You also served in the military in that country before coming to the U. S.

[00:01:42] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, thank you, Mark. As you mentioned that I was born and raised in Bangladesh in the capital city of Dhaka. My father served as an engineer for the Bangladesh government and later he was transferred to The United Arab Emirates to enhance their [00:02:00] telephone infrastructure back in the late seventies and early eighties.

[00:02:04] Rais Bhuiyan: So my father traveled quite a lot. My mother, on the other hand, as a homemaker took care of us. And, since I was a child, I had a dream to be a pilot. Seeing my father traveling, you know, very frequently going to the airport to say goodbye to him. I wish I could take him to the places where he was going at the time.

[00:02:25] Rais Bhuiyan: So that was a dream. And, , I also had a dream to attend one of the prestigious military boarding school. So I had to compete with thousands of kids and I was lucky I was selected as one of them, but I did not know what I was, what I signed up for. I left him at the age of 12 to attend the boarding school.

[00:02:45] Rais Bhuiyan: And, , after graduating from that boring school, I went on and, um, to join the Bangladeshi Air Force. But let me also take a step back real quick. Growing up in, Bangladesh, I saw the plight of the poverty. How [00:03:00] people struggle each and every single day to fulfill their basic needs, to live like a human being.

[00:03:07] Rais Bhuiyan: Though we were fortunate, their pain and suffering deeply touched me and all I wanted to do to help them. But as a child, how much you can do. But I promised myself that once I grow up, I will definitely do something for the poor, the needy, and the deprived, even though, , I never felt like what it was on the receiving end of mercy and kindness, never imagined that I would have fate, a similar fate in my dream country later on in the future in America.

[00:03:40] Rais Bhuiyan: So after joining the Air Force, I served there for two and a half years. And, uh, but I didn’t feel my destiny was in the Air Force. And I had another dream to come to USA to study computer science. And, , I felt that this is the perfect moment to leave my Air Force career and, , [00:04:00] move ahead. To pursue my dream to study computer science in my dream country in America.

[00:04:05] Mark Wright: Yeah. Rais, is there any way for us in this country to understand the depth of poverty in countries like Bangladesh without going there and seeing it? Like paint, paint a picture if you would.

[00:04:17] Rais Bhuiyan: To be honest with you, the answer is no. Unless you see things in your own eyes, or once you are there physically, it is very hard to realize what happens in poor countries. in people’s life who are struggling on a regular basis to live like a human being. I mean, I would say this, that every single day we would have people coming to our door, merely asking for a bowl of rice, just for a bowl of rice.

[00:04:46] Rais Bhuiyan: And you see these people on a regular basis, not just one day they came and then you don’t see them next one week or one month. It’s a constant. And often I would see that people would come with their little children, seven, eight [00:05:00] years old. And I would think that these kids should be in a school. Why they’re coming with their parents on a regular basis.

[00:05:08] Rais Bhuiyan: It deeply, , moved me, touched me that what it feels like to live, , in their shoes on a regular basis, you are going to people’s door every single day, just for a bowl of rice, a cup of lentil and a piece of clove. And, , I get choked up every time I talk about this kind of situation because I have seen those in my own eyes and I made a promise that.

[00:05:29] Rais Bhuiyan: I would do my best to help others. And if I may say one more thing that, at the age of, I would say 10 or 11, seeing those people coming to our door and begging, I started giving my mom’s outfit to, you know, poor woman came begging at our door. And one day I was caught red handed. And when my mom asked me what I was doing, I confessed it was not the first time I had given her outfit away.

[00:05:54] Rais Bhuiyan: And she had been wondering why her closet was thinning. BEATS WORKING. Even though she was very proud and [00:06:00] happy for the, for my actions, for my kind and giving spirit, but she urged me to grow up and focus on education. But bring back to your point that it is beyond imagination what these people go through on a regular basis unless you see this in your own eyes.

[00:06:17]

[00:06:17] Mark Wright: So you come to this country and you start studying computer science. Is that, where it began?

[00:06:23] Rais Bhuiyan: Yes, I arrived in New York City first and it was a big cultural shock. , in my seventh grade I learned about New York City, a city of lights and glass. Never sleeps, opens 24 hours. It was a huge cultural shock for me when I saw myself walking on the street of Manhattan, in the street of Queens.

[00:06:45] Mark Wright: So tell me about your college, you know, career here in this country. Did you graduate with a degree in technology or what? Take me through that timeline. That’s How

[00:06:55] Rais Bhuiyan: had a bachelor’s in aeronautics from my birth country, Bangladesh. In the U. S., [00:07:00] I attended many specialized courses offered by Microsoft. Microsoft Systems Engineering, Database Administration, Database Programming, Computer Programming, those kind of things I did. I had the dream to acquire another degree from American universities.

[00:07:16] Rais Bhuiyan: But unfortunately, a life altering incident, a changed that course and, , I could not achieve that dream, but I had to choose some shortcuts and to get into the IT, and that’s what I did in New York City and also, in Dallas, Texas.

[00:07:33] Mark Wright: did you get to Dallas Rais, and take me to that day that you were working at a convenience store in 2001, was it?

[00:07:42] Rais Bhuiyan: Yes. Well, when I was in New York City, , a city friend of mine from the same military boarding school invited me To be honest with you, I was excited to see the wrenches, cowboys, bars with their famous [00:08:00] swinging doors, though I never did find one, because, you know, I grew up watching Wild Wild West movies.

[00:08:07] Rais Bhuiyan: And I thought, wow, this is the first time I will see things in my own eyes. As I said, that unless you see things in your own eyes, you cannot imagine what it is exactly in reality. So I was very excited and I came to Dallas, loved it. Warm weather, long highways, big, big house. Lot of, , lifestyle is much more affordable than New York City.

[00:08:30] Rais Bhuiyan: Tuition fee is much cheaper than New York City. So everything was perfect for a new life. So when my friend invited me to move to Dallas, Texas, and also join him as a working partner in their newly opened gas station, I took it. I thought what else could be better than this for an immigrant? So I moved to Dallas a few months before 9 11 and, , started working in his gas station by day and studying computer science by night.

[00:08:57] Mark Wright: So take me to that [00:09:00] fateful day. This is what, 10 days after 9 11

[00:09:03] Rais Bhuiyan: Yes.

[00:09:04] Mark Wright: explain what happened.

[00:09:06] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, it was 10 terrorist attacks when rescuers. I began to search Ground Zero for search of life, our country in deep mourning, and the newfound fear and uncertainty looming. I began what would be my last day of work as a store clerk in Southeastern Dallas. You know, around noon, a customer walked in wearing bandana, sunglasses, baseball cap, and holding a sort of double barrel shotgun.

[00:09:40] Rais Bhuiyan: And from my previous robbery experience, I thought it would be another robbery. So I put all the money on the counter. As soon as he walked in, I offered him the cash and I said, sir, here’s all the money. Please take it, but do not shoot me. And his gaze [00:10:00] remained fixed. I felt a cold air flow through my spine.

[00:10:04] Rais Bhuiyan: And then he mumbled a question. Where are you from? And before I could say anything more than, excuse me, he pulled the trigger from point blank range. I felt like a millions of bees stinging my face. And then heard the explosion. That’s the big sound. I looked under the floor and saw blood pouring like an open faucet from the right side of my head.

[00:10:34] Rais Bhuiyan: Frantically and, uh, instinctively, I placed both hands on my head thinking, Oh my gosh, I have to keep my brains from spilling out. And I remember myself screaming, Mom, on top of my voice. And then I looked left, saw the gunman is still standing there, pointing the double barrel shotgun straight at my face.

[00:10:57] Rais Bhuiyan: And I thought, If I don’t pretend [00:11:00] to be dying, he would shoot me again. So my military instinct kicked in right there and I fell to the floor and he finally left. I found myself on the pool of my own blood on a cold concrete convenience store floor and I grabbed the phone but I was shaking so badly I couldn’t even dial 9 1 1 and I kept thinking I’m gonna die today.

[00:11:29] Rais Bhuiyan: The way I was bleeding, like an open faucet, and I told myself that, step positive, get out of the store, and seek for help. Even though there was a fear of getting shot in the parking lot by my attacker, but I left the store with the phone in my hand, ran to the barbershop next door, and three men inside looked at me in horror, as if they saw [00:12:00] evil right after me.

[00:12:01] Rais Bhuiyan: And they tried to escape through the emergency door. I grabbed one of them and I said, please call 911. And as he did, I caught myself in the middle, like a gruesome movie scene, like a horror scene, and I couldn’t believe that was my face. I came to the parking lot and kept running from one side to the other, instead of lying down on the floor and hoping somebody would come with a stretcher to pick me up, rather I kept running because in my mind at that time, I was I had to save each and every fraction of a second, keep myself available for the EMTs so they can start treating myself right there.

[00:12:41] Rais Bhuiyan: And that shows the tremendous desire to live, to enjoy the beauty of this world, to see your loved ones and just to live. And I was lucky the ambulance arrived within three minutes. And on my way to the hospital, I felt like my eyes were closing [00:13:00] and I made a promise to God that if you give me a chance to live, I would help others.

[00:13:07] Mark Wright: Wow. So the man who shot you was a white supremacist named Mark Stroman. He was on a rampage to avenge 9 11. He had already murdered two other people of color he thought were Muslims in retaliation for the attack on 9 11. You had a really difficult recovery from 9 11. Basically half of your head , was just plastered with shotgun pellets.

[00:13:34] Mark Wright: , you lost sight in one eye and to make matters worse, the hospital discharged you probably way before you should have been. How, what was the reason behind that Rais?

[00:13:46] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, unfortunately, the hospital where I was taken to was private and expensive, and I did not have health insurance at that time. And it was immediately after 9 11. So I felt like [00:14:00] I was treated as a second class citizen at that time. Nobody had time or any kind of concern about a brown man got shot in the face working in a convenience store.

[00:14:12] Rais Bhuiyan: It was not the story to talk about. It was not the issue that people felt like they need to focus on. So the hospital, to my biggest surprise, that it could happen in America, they discharged me next morning and told me. To arrange follow up medical treatments on my own, knowing that I had no, no loved one in America.

[00:14:35] Rais Bhuiyan: I was alone and, , being shot in the face was the first part of my American dream becoming American nightmare and being kicked out from the hospital. Next day was the second part of my American life, American. You know, a dream shattered into pieces. And, uh, still today, I, can’t believe how it was possible.

[00:14:59] Rais Bhuiyan: Even in my own [00:15:00] birth country, a poor country like Bangladesh would not discharge me next day morning and would tell me to go and arrange follow up medical treatments, they told me. did not make me a bitter person. Rather, it helped me to be a better human being because I survived. I not only survived, I thrived from those traumatic experience.

[00:15:23] Rais Bhuiyan: The pain, the shame, the negligence I faced at the time, it did not make me a , a better person. It helped me to be stronger, to be a better human being.

[00:15:33] Mark Wright: So how many months was it Raisbefore you felt even like halfway normal to be able to carry on, you know, everyday life? How many months did that take? Hmm. Hmm.

[00:15:46] Rais Bhuiyan: It took years, not just months. Immediately after this incident, I developed a fear of, you know, going out and getting shot once again. Because I realized that time [00:16:00] that Islamophobia was on the rise. People who are being beaten up, people who are physically assaulted all over in America, and I was the only survivor of my attacker.

[00:16:09] Rais Bhuiyan: So I felt like if I go outside, somebody would finish the job. So I made myself, you know, a prisoner in my own house, couldn’t go outside. And I also developed a fear of large bald headed white men with tattoos. And, , since I could not afford to go for counseling, it took weeks to get the first surgery.

[00:16:33] Rais Bhuiyan: So all this piled up, you know, in a very bad way and caused so much trauma, so much anxiety and fear that I could not that prevented me to lead a normal human life. And to be honest with you, it’s okay to say that I cried. We all cry, we all are human being. I cried, I cried a lot and I kept asking God, you kept my promise.

[00:16:57] Rais Bhuiyan: You, you, you kept my begging that [00:17:00] to give me a second chance to live. And now with this face shattered with a lot of shrunken palates, with the fear of people, the fear of going outside, how can I live, lead a normal human life? You helped me first to fix my face, , heal my face that all the, cut marks, all the black spots will disappear slowly.

[00:17:22] Rais Bhuiyan: And then help me to face my fear and get back to normal life. And to my surprise, within six to eight months, my face started healing. All the spots, all the dark marks, cut marks on my face slowly disappeared. But the fear of others, fear of people getting back to normal life was still a big challenge for me.

[00:17:43] Rais Bhuiyan: And I was going through surgeries one after the other. After three surgeries, three eye surgeries, the doctor finally told me that He would be able to save the eye, but not the vision. And, you know, as an, as any Air Force [00:18:00] officer, your vision is your asset. So finally, it was very sad and also hard to accept that finally, I would not see this world with one of mine.

[00:18:10] Rais Bhuiyan: But I had to accept it. And. My brain was going crazy because of no vision in one eye and the other eye had perfectly 2010 vision. So brain was going crazy because it was getting two different kinds of image, not knowing which one to accept, which one to reject. I had constant headache. I could not lead a normal life.

[00:18:30] Rais Bhuiyan: I couldn’t work. I could not do anything besides facing this constant headache and I couldn’t see a doctor. I couldn’t see, , any counselor. Life was very miserable at the time that I hope nobody would ever go through.

[00:18:44] Mark Wright: So your attacker, Mark Strowman, was arrested and convicted of the two murders of the people that he killed, and convicted of the attempted murder of you. was a turning point that caused you to [00:19:00] forgive Mark Strowman for what he did to you. When did that turning point happen and what led you to that Rais?

[00:19:06] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, forgiveness took place, in two folds. First, after this incident happened to me, I did not think about the shooting incident. I did not think about my attacker. I kept my focus on getting my life on track, getting medical treatment, get back to a normal life, go back to school, rebuild my life in the very country where it was shattered.

[00:19:33] Rais Bhuiyan: So that helped me a lot to move forward without being, to remain. Sad, depressed, angry, and also being consumed with negativity because of what has done to me. And this is one of the,, process of finding forgiveness that you need to take time to, you know, understand what happened to you.

[00:19:56] Rais Bhuiyan: And instead of focusing on the crime, focus on yourself. That will help you [00:20:00] divert your focus, focus on good things, on positive things. And in course of time, I reflected on the lessons I learned from my parents and from my faith, my Islamic faith, and that inspired me to forgive my attacker. But the forgiveness was not for my attacker.

[00:20:18] Rais Bhuiyan: It was for myself to move forward so that I do not stay sad, angry, depressed, full of paths of revenge and retaliation. Those are negative energy. It caused a lot of stress and trauma. So I was able to forgive in order to move on, to find myself, to rebuild my life. It helped a lot. But then in course of time, when I went to Mecca in 2009 to perform pilgrimage with my mother.

[00:20:47] Rais Bhuiyan: I did not realize, I actually felt that forgiveness was not enough. Yes, I forgave my attacker. I felt good. But what is the true benefit and outcome [00:21:00] for me, for my attacker? And also, what kind of common good it brings to the society? I deeply thought about my attacker sitting on death row waiting to die.

[00:21:09] Rais Bhuiyan: And I realized that by killing him, we would lose, we would simply lose another human being without dealing with the root cause. I began to see him as a human being like me, not just a killer. I also saw him as a victim of the victim of family, dysfunctional family, a victim of our, , broken education system, a victim of broken, , justice system, prison system.

[00:21:37] Rais Bhuiyan: I saw him a broken man who never had the chance to repair himself. Who never had the chance to rehabilitate himself or who never ever had the love, kindness, empathy, respect every human being deserved in their life. He grew up as a broken child. He grew up as a broken human being. So I fell [00:22:00] for him and I realized that no, I need to do more because I had a promise to God that if he gave me a chance to live, I would do good others.

[00:22:07] Rais Bhuiyan: What have I done for others? I have done very well in my own life. I moved on from working in restaurants, going back to school, into IT, , traveling the world. I did very well. What have I done to keep my promise? So I thought about that. Maybe I need to do something for my attacker, at least trying to save his life.

[00:22:27] Rais Bhuiyan: So I came back from Mecca. With a renewed vision, with a heart, I felt, , extremely soft, full of kind, compassion, and mercy and forgiveness. And I realized that I need to do something for my attacker. And that inspired me to launch a global campaign to try and save his life from Texas death row.

[00:22:50] Mark Wright: Did you get any pushback, Rais? I mean, did people say, What are you doing? You’re crazy to try to save this guy’s life.

[00:22:57] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, to be honest with you, , I did, but [00:23:00] very, very, you know, a little amount, Because, , some people send me email, they’re saying, Oh, Muslims are not supposed to forgive. , you’re supposed to kill and convert the non Muslims. All kinds of stereotypes we hear in the news media. So they try to, they send those kind of, you know, wrong message to me saying that what I was doing was wrong because , that my faith, you know, doesn’t dictate that or promote that.

[00:23:24] Rais Bhuiyan: So it was an opportunity for me to educate those people. So I did not ignore those emails. Rather, I responded each and every email. You know, giving them facts and examples, and I never heard back from them. Some people told me that, Oh, , what I was trying to do is going to inspire a lot of people like Mark Stroman to do the same kind of mistake.

[00:23:47] Rais Bhuiyan: And my message was very simple that, what me and people who came forward to help our campaign was trying to send a new narrative, set a new narrative that. We don’t have to kill people for their [00:24:00] mistakes. We don’t have to, you know, focus on, , punishment. We don’t have to focus on, , only on punishing people, but not giving a chance to repair and rehabilitate.

[00:24:09] Rais Bhuiyan: We were not asking to let him go free. We were actually asked him to lower his punishment so that he finally get a chance to repair and rehabilitate. And he could inspire people like him in the free world who were willing and ready to hurt and hate people. And who could talk more powerfully than the person who committed the crime. So that was our hope. And, um, the people who, you know, criticized in the very beginning, it was an opportunity for us. to, , to correct their views and thoughts and also it was an opportunity to, , share what is correct information and also make them understand it is for common good. It is not for, , promoting crime or inspiring people like Mark Stroman to do more crimes.

[00:24:54] Mark Wright: So, this is a tenure process that Mark Stroman’s on death row in [00:25:00] Texas. And over that time, he becomes aware that you are fighting for his life. And he starts to transform as a human being. And I want to fast forward to the day that he was executed. The lawyers, his lawyers and your lawyers, were able to make it so that you could speak to each other on the phone.

[00:25:21] Mark Wright: The state of Texas had prevented you from talking with Mark Stroman, I guess, before that. , what did Mark tell you, Rayce, that day that he was executed?

[00:25:31] Rais Bhuiyan: every time I talk about this phone conversation, you know, I get goosebumps because What can you tell to a human being who is about to be executed? There is not much you really , can talk. And knowing that I was about to go to the court to fight one last time to save his life, the pressure was tremendous on my shoulder, not knowing which way, you know, would go things today.

[00:25:59] Rais Bhuiyan: And at [00:26:00] that time, knowing that my attacker Mark Schuman was sitting next to the execution chamber waiting for this court hearing to be over. It’s a tremendous pressure. You know, it’s like a life and death situation. And I, I was very emotional because at that moment, I was thinking about my life and death situation on my way to the hospital, not knowing if I was about, if I were going to make it, I couldn’t say goodbye to my parents.

[00:26:24] Rais Bhuiyan: I couldn’t say goodbye to anyone. And I never realized that I would lose my life in America. where I came to achieve big dreams, big goals, and now I’m dying. So I, I could relate to that experience. And when I was told by the prison system that When I called and they told me that, Oh, you are so and so, you cannot talk to him.

[00:26:48] Rais Bhuiyan: And I realized, Oh, now you’re taking revenge because I filed lawsuit against the prison system, the governor of Texas, the attorney general to exercise my victim’s [00:27:00] right to have a mediation dialogue with my attacker before he was executed. And now, because of that, you are depriving me from exercising my right.

[00:27:09] Rais Bhuiyan: one thing I learned in my life very well, that I don’t take no for no. I always try to find around, some workaround. So I called one of his friends who was managing his, uh, his activities on that day. And I was lucky enough that Mark was talking to him through a line phone, through a land phone.

[00:27:27] Rais Bhuiyan: And that friend told me, if you want, I can put on a speaker. I can make it through your call. You can talk. I said, let’s do that. So when Mark came on the phone, I told him that Mark, you know, for sure that I forgave you and I never hated you. And he said, GRais, I never expected this from you. I love you. And when he said I love you bro, I couldn’t hold my tears on.

[00:27:54] Rais Bhuiyan: I was literally crying. This is the same human being 10 years ago [00:28:00] shot me in the face for no reason other than hate. And this is the same human being 10 years later calling me his brother and he said he loved me. That shows people can change. Given the love, respect, kindness. And I believe he was genuine.

[00:28:18] Rais Bhuiyan: When he called me brother, it was genuine. And he said, Reyes, keep doing. The world needs you. And then he said, Reyes, I have to go there calling me. And at that time I realized that maybe this is our last conversation. Maybe I’ll never be able to get the chance to talk to him anymore because they are taking him , to the exhibition chamber because Within an hour and a half, he’ll be executed.

[00:28:44] Rais Bhuiyan: And this is the final phone call he had with me.

[00:28:48] Rais Bhuiyan: I felt like that, that hearing from him, these two words that he loved me and he saw me as a brother, , it helped me a lot in my journey of healing and [00:29:00] finding closure.

[00:29:01] Mark Wright: Yeah. So, Rais, you decided to start a non profit called World Without Hate to share your experience and also to share the power of empathy and the power of forgiveness and kindness and love. And, , you created programs to go into schools to teach this to school children. You spoke in prisons all over the world. When I met you, In 2017, 2018, not long after that, you and your wife, Jessica decided to move to Seattle and move the nonprofit up here. And not long after that, you started to dedicate your life’s work to the nonprofit. , I’d love to talk about the documentary that you and Mark Fascia and your wife, Jessica just finished putting together.

[00:29:46] Mark Wright: It’s called Pain and Peace. What the documentary does is you guys went all over North America talking to the victims and the perpetrators of hate crimes to try to understand why hate causes some people [00:30:00] to do what they do and then what we can do about it. And I’ve had a chance to see the film Raisand I was just blown away at how powerful that film is.

[00:30:09] Mark Wright: To explain, you talked about Mark Strowman as a broken person and all of the stories in the film Profile these former skinheads and white supremacists and hate group members It’s so clear that all of them were somehow broken and that led them to that place of hate To be able to hate someone they don’t even know who doesn’t look like them.

[00:30:31] Mark Wright: , what do you hope the most powerful thing? People get from from the film pain and peace and you’re hoping for wider distribution. You’ve had a few screenings But what was your purpose? Why did you feel so strongly that you needed to make a documentary?

[00:30:46] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, a few things, because I personally know what it feels like to wake up each day with the wounds of hate. And, um, Seeing the rise of, extremism and hate fueled violence against [00:31:00] Asian Americans, Blacks, Jewish, Muslims, Sikhs, LGBTQ and others, I wanted to know more about what drives people to hate and hurt others.

[00:31:12] Rais Bhuiyan: Where does visceral hate fueled violence come from? And, you know, can, people really find peace, healing and forgiveness? I know what was my journey to find forgiveness, find healing and closure, but there are so many stories out there. The more we share our stories, the more we can build bridges among people and communities.

[00:31:32] Rais Bhuiyan: It can help debunk myths and stereotypes, hate and intolerance, and ultimately it humanize people. So we decided and, , special thanks to you for, uh, for making me, for introducing me with Mark Fazer. And when I met Mark Fazer, We felt like we have the common passion to do something with our lived experiences, with our skills for common good.

[00:31:59] Rais Bhuiyan: And then [00:32:00] we talked about, , , to embark on a journey to capture those stories and help people to be inspired, to, , find empathy, healing, and meaning in their own lives. That is the main focus of this documentary that How Can We Help People? To find peace, hope, healing in the midst of pain, suffering, and uncertainty.

[00:32:27] Rais Bhuiyan: It’s a simple, there’s so many that we are so divided in our country and all over the world right now, and everywhere we see the rise of extremism, violence, people pointing fingers at each other. People are not getting it, not getting along with each other. It’s simply because of the Rais, religion, skin color, you know, sexual orientation.

[00:32:48] Rais Bhuiyan: But deep down. we should not be hating people simply because who they are. If we take a little time to understand who they are, if we take a little time to get to know their stories, [00:33:00] it helps us. It also helps the people we do not understand or we hate. So this documentary is, you know, it’s focused doing exactly what we just discussed that how can we inspire people to find hope, healing, empathy, and forgiveness.

[00:33:19] Rais Bhuiyan: In the midst of pain and chaos.

[00:33:21] Mark Wright: One of the most powerful statements in the film Raiscame from a former white supremacist who said The thing that got to him the most was feeling love and being shown love from people he was supposed to hate. And I just thought, oh my gosh, , the honesty of that statement speaks to the power of love. When one human being shows love and compassion for another human being, there’s a power and there’s a love. And there’s a disarming power to that love that I don’t think the average person can even begin to understand Rais, because how often do we see two groups of people shouting and [00:34:00] yelling at each other as if that’s going to bring the two sides together?

[00:34:04] Mark Wright: And what you’ve shown through multiple stories in the documentary is that when people show love and compassion, To people who are hateful, it, it actually turns them. And the same way that Mark Stroman was turned from a hateful, all out white supremacist to someone who called you a brother and said he loved you and said he was sorry , for what he did.

[00:34:30] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, the interesting part here is my attacker never said sorry to us. He never apologized. He never owned his res, his, he never owned his action the way he destroyed several lives. He always maintained the macho mentality that what he did, it was the right thing to do. Even he called himself as a true American patriot, and he said he should be given a medal for his action.

[00:34:56] Rais Bhuiyan: But in the end, when he heard from his lawyer [00:35:00] that he is one of his, , his victims, actually running a campaign to save his life with the help of other victims family members, And he was forgiven. That touched him so deeply that his lawyer told me he was reduced to tears in front of. And that helped him to go through a transformation.

[00:35:21] Rais Bhuiyan: That even though he never apologized, he never said sorry, but still he was forgiven. And that is the power of unconditional forgiveness. Because at the end, forgiveness cannot be transaction. It has to be for, you know, , It has to be sincere. It has to be for the greater good, right? So he took notice and he went through a transformation and at the end before he was executed his last words were Hate is going on everywhere.

[00:35:47] Rais Bhuiyan: It has to stop. Hate causes a lifetime of pain. If he was not truly changed, if he did not truly found peace, comfort, love and [00:36:00] respect from the very people he once hated, I believe he wouldn’t be able to say what he said today. At the end of his life,

[00:36:07] Mark Wright: Yeah.

[00:36:07] Rais Bhuiyan: would still be the bitter person, the sad, angry man.

[00:36:11] Rais Bhuiyan: And one thing I also learned in my journey, also, you know, um, in the process of making the documentary, that the most powerful people are the people who can control their anger. The most powerful people are the people who can, you know, love others and respect as who they are. Yes, , we human beings are the product of the environment we grew up in and the people we associated with.

[00:36:36] Rais Bhuiyan: Or still we are associating with, but , it is powerful. Once we break that barrier, once we go beyond that environment to find ourselves and challenge ourselves, what we believe, why we believe that is that anything other than what we believe is true, is factual, that is powerful. Rather, Being, consumed with what we learned from our loved ones, from our friends, [00:37:00] from the people we grew up in, that is powerful.

[00:37:03] Mark Wright: Yeah. So he, I, I guess I had that wrong Rais. He never apologized to you.

[00:37:08] Rais Bhuiyan: Until , we launched the campaign, he never apologized and he never said sorry to us.

[00:37:16] Mark Wright: Yeah, but after that point was there ever an apology?

[00:37:19] Rais Bhuiyan: Yes, after he heard about the campaign, he wrote a long letter to me from death row. And, uh, he’ll publicly apologized. He wrote a lot of, , blogs where he talked about, you know, what went wrong in his life, how he was raised and how he feels now seeing himself locked up in a death row, 23 and a half hours per day, which he also shared in his letter to me.

[00:37:43] Rais Bhuiyan: And if I may share one paragraph, from his letter, where he says that, my stepfather taught me some lessons that I should have never learned. It has taken me for some long to unlearn some of them, and I’m still working on some of [00:38:00] them. I don’t know who your parents were, but it is obvious they’re wonderful people to lead you to act this way to someone you have every right to hate.

[00:38:09] Rais Bhuiyan: And that tells me the point you just mentioned that the people who are full of hate, anger, and violence, something went wrong in their life, in their childhood. And Mark is a great example of that. He grew up in a house where he never felt loved. He never felt respected. Rather, his stepfather taught him all the negative things.

[00:38:32] Rais Bhuiyan: Be macho, be a bully in school. That’s what his survival technique.

[00:38:37] Mark Wright: Yeah, one of the people you interview in the film is Reverend Al Sharpton and I had forgotten that earlier in his career he had been stabbed at a rally by a guy who was trying to kill him and Sharpton actually went to his sentencing and asked the court To be lenient, he said, because he had forgiven.

[00:38:59] Mark Wright: And I thought what [00:39:00] was really interesting about what Reverend Sharpton said, Rayce, is it’s exactly what you said earlier, that he forgave him, not to forgive him, but so that he himself could move on without getting eaten up by, by hate. Do you see that as the common denominator for all the people that you’ve met in your travels who have found a way to forgive people who’ve done completely awful things to them or their families?

[00:39:27] Rais Bhuiyan: But , isn’t it amazing that, people like you didn’t know what happened to Al Sharpton, right? It’s not a bad thing, but I’m saying that it’s a powerful story. And once we share our unique stories with others, it helps. build bridges and humanizes each other. And that is powerful. That’s why, you know, one of , the main focus behind this documentary was sharing more human stories.

[00:39:52] Rais Bhuiyan: And, um, in this journey, I would say majority of the people found forgiveness and found healing, [00:40:00] reconciliation, those who did not talk about forgiveness, it’s not that there is still, bitter or angry, it’s a process. For some people, it takes. shorter time for some people it takes longer in my case it took almost nine years to forgive my attacker publicly and also go to the extra mile to save his life to try to save his life from death row but in the beginning the forgiveness was only for myself to move forward but in course of time so if someone would ask me in the first few years i would have given the same answer that forgiveness was for myself which is perfectly fine but in course of time i found the highest form of forgiveness that forgive And you don’t have to mend if you’re not able to.

[00:40:45] Rais Bhuiyan: That’s perfectly fine. And to be honest with you also, you don’t have to forgive. As long as you find peace out of your pain. You don’t have to forgive because forgiveness is not for all. As long as I said, as long as we find [00:41:00] ways to move forward, and make ourselves comfortable, and make peace with our pain.

[00:41:05] Rais Bhuiyan: So back to your point that, I also learned a lot in this journey by sitting with those subjects, hearing their stories, and learning more about their process. Every story is unique. Every process is unique. There are some similarities. It takes time. You know, it takes to go through a healing journey. That is common, but every story is unique.

[00:41:31] Mark Wright: One of the stories that you profile in the film is the Topps supermarket shooting in Buffalo, New York, correct?

[00:41:40] Rais Bhuiyan: Yes.

[00:41:41] Mark Wright: Yeah. And you just had a chance to screen the film there within the last week or two. What was that like, Rais, for the people who attended that film?

[00:41:50] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, it was a tremendous honor for our nonprofit World Without Hate and for us as well to host a special [00:42:00] screening and also a community gathering on the second anniversary of the top supermarket tragedy, May 14th. And, uh, we did this event for a few reasons, first of all, , to more collectively to remind people that what hate did to that peaceful loving community, but also the resilience, the power they demonstrate not by responding hate with hate, violence with violence.

[00:42:30] Rais Bhuiyan: They sent a tremendous message to the rest of the world that they will not be redefined themselves by that attacker. What he did to them, rather they wanted to be remembered by the actions that they And with the message of love, compassion, and understanding. It was heartbreaking , to go to Buffalo, especially, the top supermarket and imagining that their [00:43:00] bodies lying on the parking lot, walking inside the store, imagining their bodies lying in different aisles.

[00:43:06] Rais Bhuiyan: These are human beings, not just, you know, numbers. And when I learned more about their stories, when I learned more about them, who these people are.

[00:43:15] Rais Bhuiyan: I saw myself in their shoes. I saw myself in their shoes because I was thinking what was going on in their mind after being shot and before they took their last breath. I believe they were also hoping and praying to God for a second chance. I believe that they were also hoping that they would be able to go back to their loved ones as I did and enjoy the warm hug of their loved ones, hoping they would get a second chance, but unfortunately they did not.

[00:43:46] Rais Bhuiyan: It broke my heart. It really pushed me to renew my promise that I should be doing more of this work to help heal people, to help people to see each other as human [00:44:00] beings, and take time to get to know the others so that we can get beyond our preconceived notions, intolerance, and violence. And while we screen the film, we were really honored to see a diverse group of people came to this screening, blacks and whites, people from out of town as well.

[00:44:21] Rais Bhuiyan: And, uh, during the Q and A, we all talked about how to raise strong children because the kid, the 18 year old who did this massacre, he chose death and destruction over life

[00:44:37] Rais Bhuiyan: and future and humanity. So what went wrong in that? In that? Attacker’s life at the age of 18, he took up arms to kill some strangers. He really, he even didn’t know any of them, but he felt the need to go and take their lives. Something definitely went tremendously wrong in that kid’s life, [00:45:00] in his family life, in his personal and social life.

[00:45:03] Rais Bhuiyan: What went wrong? So we, at the talkback session, we talked about that. We talked about how to, , talk about anti blackness. How can we make each other respectfully uncomfortable to talking about the issues that is dividing us further and further? Racism, gun violence, you know, anti Blackness, systemic oppression, the system that is keep failing us again and again.

[00:45:28] Rais Bhuiyan: So it was a very powerful community engagement where the majority of the social issues were discussed And I was so honored to have some of the panelists, , some of the subjects who also part of the documentary, they talked about the life, their experience before and after the shooting and how it not only shattered their life, but also how it now motivating them to go the extra mile to make a peaceful tomorrow.

[00:45:57] Mark Wright: I think one of the things that the film does, [00:46:00] Rais, is that it really opens our eyes to how pervasive hate is in so many forms. I have friends who are Asian who’ve been the target of anti Asian hate. , you travel to Canada to talk about the systemic, oppression of Native kids , in government schools, where supposedly religious men and women are being abused.

[00:46:23] Mark Wright: Not only persecuted and abused them, but killed hundreds of them. These are religious people. So , it really spans the spectrum of, hate in the form of religious people all the way to, you know, overt skinhead white supremacist hate groups. One thing that I didn’t realize until I met you, Rais, is that when you are the victim of an attack like this. It leaves you permanently changed.

[00:46:52] Rais Bhuiyan: It does.

[00:46:53] Mark Wright: you told me one time that the only time that you feel safe, and it really just breaks my heart that you told me [00:47:00] the only place that you ever feel safe is when you go through security at the airport. The only time you feel safe, you know that someone with a gun can’t get through there.

[00:47:14] Rais Bhuiyan: Isn’t it sad that we live, In the most civilized country, one of the only superpower in the world and our people, it’s not only me, I can give you many examples of people, those who feel the same way that the only place they feel safe in America is after passing the security checkpoint at the airport, because we know that you cannot walk in with your AR 15, with your assault rifle, or even with your 9mm, you cannot just walk, walk in there.

[00:47:49] Rais Bhuiyan: It is true. It is sad. at the same time, we can work together to make this better. And we can. I truly believe [00:48:00] that there is nothing that America cannot fix and achieve. I truly believe that there is nothing that Americans cannot achieve once they work together. We did it many, many times. We are the only nations in the world that say something, the next thing, they go get to work and do it and achieve it. And if, and the best example I can give from my own life experience that, if I can turn around my life, being shot in the face, finding myself in a cold concrete convenience store floor, getting to IT, get back to normal life, fulfill my American dream as much as I could, I think anybody can. And this country provides that kind of tools.

[00:48:46] Rais Bhuiyan: And the kind and caring Americans who came forward to support me, that shows that there are so many loving, kind, and caring people in this country. We just need to come together for greater good, for [00:49:00] common good. It’s an awful feeling to go out in public and think about every time that, especially when I go to gym, when I go to a supermarket, when I go to movie theater, I constantly remain vigilant.

[00:49:14] Rais Bhuiyan: Every time I walk in those big places, I look at the exit sign first. BEATS WORKING. Where are the exit signs? Where are the hiding places? And I don’t do it intentionally, but I realize that it comes into my mind automatically. I’m looking for exit signs, hiding places. It’s not just me alone. The people whose lives were shattered, inflicted by pain, they feel the same way.

[00:49:40] Mark Wright: Ray says we wrap this up, you’ve been invited a number of times to the White House and engaged with the President and his staff and administration. I guess what I’d love to know is, you’ve made this your life work, it’s full time now, , and I’m guessing you’re going to continue doing this as long as you are alive.

[00:49:59] Mark Wright: And [00:50:00] I, I just am so impressed with the human being that you are, the quality of human being that you are. What do you hope all of this work leads to?

[00:50:11] Rais Bhuiyan: Well, my hope is people will take time to get to know the other. Because I truly believe that Once we get to know the other, it is hard for us to hate them. If my attacker took the time after he asked me where I was from, allowing me to give the answer and just chat with me for a few seconds, most likely he would not pull the trigger.

[00:50:34] Rais Bhuiyan: Most likely he would have offered me help and comfort. He would have asked me, are you scared? After 9 11, people are getting beaten up. People like you are being attacked. What can I do to help you? Since he did not know me, he saw me as an enemy. He saw me as a lesser person because of his preconceived notion and his idea about immigrants, about Middle Eastern people.

[00:50:59] Rais Bhuiyan: [00:51:00] So through this work, I, I truly, truly hope and believe that people will see each other as human being first and people will stand up against any human suffering, regardless of the victims or the perpetrators. And people will treat people as individual, not as a, because once you see people as a group, it is easy to label them as the other, as the bad.

[00:51:26] Rais Bhuiyan: But once you see everyone as individual, we take the time to get to know them. And at the same time, if we make ourselves respectfully uncomfortable, it will help us to get beyond our comfort zone. And as you mentioned that one of the reformed white supremacists talked about his journey in the documentary, that when he felt loved by strangers, it put him through a transformation that he worked so hard to hate those people.

[00:51:56] Rais Bhuiyan: But in response, he only got love and respect from those [00:52:00] people and it helped him to change slowly by slowly. So that is our hope that people will be more empathetic. Understanding and accepting individuals for who they are.

[00:52:12] Mark Wright: Well, Ray Spoonjan, this has been such an honor to spend time with you. You know, I’m a big fan of yours and your work and it’s an honor for me to serve on the board of your organization, World Without Hate. I’m really hoping for wider release of the film, Pain and Peace. We’ll put a link to the trailer in our show notes and also a link to your organization if people want to learn more about World Without Hate.

[00:52:35] Mark Wright: But, , you, uh, you have my admiration and support for as long as I have, , have breath, my friend. So thank you for everything you do and for the amazing human being that you are.

[00:52:47] Rais Bhuiyan: Thank you so very much for the kind words and for the shout out, the documentary, and to World Without Hate. Thank you once again. I’m honored to have you in my life as brother and as a friend, as a mentor. Thank [00:53:00] you.

[00:53:00] Mark Wright: Thank you, Rais.