In this episode, we tackle the complexities of the hybrid workplace and how to navigate its challenges and opportunities. Our panel of experts discusses intentional communication, trust, and management strategies crucial for remote work success.
Key Takeaways:
- Intentional Communication: Learn how deliberate and mindful communication practices can strengthen team relationships and productivity.
- Trust and Autonomy: Understand the importance of trusting employees and providing them with autonomy to foster engagement and accountability.
- Organizational Clarity: Discover how clear expectations and performance management are vital for effective hybrid work environments.
Guests:
-Jason Lauritsen, expert in employee engagement and organizational development
-Julia Waller, leadership advisor and advocate for unique ability teamwork
-Dr. Julie Pham, communication strategist and leadership consultant
-Dr. James Bryant, founder of Engineer Your Success and remote work advocate
Resources Mentioned:
- LinkedIn: Jason Lauritsen, Julia Waller, Dr. Julie Pham, Dr. James Bryant, and Mark Wright
- Listen: ”Work Is Broken. Here’s How to Fix It,” our episode with Jason Lauritsen
- More about Jason and his work: https://jasonlauritsen.com/
- Unique Ability Teamwork: www.uniqueability.com/teamwork
- Hybrid Work Statistics: Gallup and Deloitte research reports
Quotes:
“Treat people like adults and give them the why.” – Jason Lauritsen
“Time is the currency of relationships.” – James Bryant
Listener Challenge:
This week, try setting up an intentional on-site day focused on team connecting and collaborating. Share your experiences and insights with us using #BEATSWORKINGShow.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
[00:00:00] Mark Wright: Jason Lauritsen, it’s great to have you back. Thanks for being with us to lead this session.
[00:00:05] Jason Lauritsen: Mark, I’m always delighted to be with you.
[00:00:07] Mark Wright: So let’s introduce the panel and then Jason will turn it over to you. So our panel is made up of three amazing past guests of the BEATS WORKING podcast, Julia Waller, Dr. Julie Pham and Dr. James Bryant. I’d love it if each of you would introduce yourselves. Julia, let’s begin with you.
[00:00:26] Julia Waller: Sure. Thanks for having me, Mark. Great to be here. Julia Waller. I work with a company called Strategic Coach. I’m coming up on 26 years with this amazing company. We work with highly successful, talented, ambitious entrepreneurs and help them grow and have more freedom. And I am our resident unique ability specialist.
[00:00:42] Julia Waller: So I get to tell people how amazing they are and help them connect with their talents to help them grow. So it’s really fun thing to do.
[00:00:49] Mark Wright: All right, Julia, thank you. And Julie, why don’t you go next?
[00:00:52] Julie Pham: Hi, I’m Julie Pham. I have my own company called Curiosity Base. We help people practice curiosity in the world, starting in the [00:01:00] workplace, because that is where we spend most of our waking hours. I also have a book, The Seven Forms of Respect, a guide to transforming your communication and relationships at work.
[00:01:11] Julie Pham: It’s about how we can agree how respect feels. Yet we disagree about what does it look like. And that respect, even though we talk about it as if it’s fixed and universal, it’s actually relative, subjective, dynamic, and contradictory.
[00:01:24] Mark Wright: Julie, thank you. James.
[00:01:26] Dr James Bryant: Yeah. I am the owner and president of engineer, your success, a boutique leadership, development, executive coaching, and consulting firm, where I help engineers and other business owners design and live a life where they can win at work and at home.
[00:01:40] Mark Wright: And I’d like to encourage everybody listening to check out the original podcast episodes with James, Julie, and Julia, as well as Jason. those episodes are just packed with wisdom that you can use in the workplace to be more, more successful. So Jason, you’ve made a career out of trying to fix. And we learned from your episode on the BEATS [00:02:00] WORKING podcast that your focus is really to get companies and managers to understand that work is first and foremost a relationship, not a contract.
[00:02:08] Mark Wright: So Jason, where do you, where do you want to start when it comes to assessing the hybrid workplace?
[00:02:14] Jason Lauritsen: I’ll start by saying,when we were exploring what topic we should dive into, the reason this particular topic came to mind for me is that it feels like it’s a topic that warrants some more, nuanced conversation and more nuanced understanding, I think, because it, at least to me, feels like we’re, there’s sort of this race to, to get to the end of this transformation disruption period that the pandemic began, right?
[00:02:48] Jason Lauritsen: We started pre pandemic in the world we were in, where everybody was going to the office for the most part, and then We got disrupted and everything got blown apart like a lego house getting smashed to the ground and we’re very [00:03:00] anxious I think to arrive at a place where all the legos are neatly stacked back up somehow so that we can just move on and unfortunately I think we’re in a spot where We use this word HYBRID to describe a state of working or some kind of workplace thing as if it is a singular approach.
[00:03:23] Jason Lauritsen: And all HYBRID really means is NOT AT THE OFFICE FULL TIME, NOT AT Remote full time. Everything in between that is hybrid. And it’s really kind of,interesting that we’ve arrived at this place where we’re sort of like, well, we’re done. Everybody’s going to be hybrid for some period of time or mostly and away we go.
[00:03:44] Jason Lauritsen: And there was a couple of conversations that I had recently that I thought brought To the surface, sort of where we are, because my argument is that I think we’re, you know, if it’s a baseball game, we’re maybe in the third inning perhaps of this, [00:04:00] evolution. And one conversation was, uh, with a friend of mine whose organization is, they just recently rolled out what their kind of return to office. Game plan is going to be, and this is after,a new CEO joined the organization and then they, launched a whole kind of internal employee group, I guess, to inform on this, you know, a task force or something, and they sent out, I think some surveys, they did a bunch of stuff, right? At least making it seem as if it was going to be rooted in employee preference and employee opinions.
[00:04:38] Jason Lauritsen: And then at the end of the day, the. The CEO had a like a town hall with all employees to kind of roll out what the, you know, what the new thing’s going to be. And it is, I don’t remember exactly. It’s like a, one of these three, two or four, one kind of things where you’re mostly in the office. And a majority of these [00:05:00] people have been mostly at home and And it was just sort of, and the employees sort of knew immediately like, okay, this stinks.
[00:05:08] Jason Lauritsen: This is not what we wanted. So why did you ask us? Right. So there was that resonance, but this is what’s going to happen and it’s rolled out. And I think the way it was rolled out, the CEO didn’t even like take questions or anything in the first place. That was not going to end well, and so just kind of communicated it throughout this process.
[00:05:28] Jason Lauritsen: They’ve had internal people like leaking stories to the press. There are like all kinds of chaos going on. And then the irony of ironies on top of this is that this particular CEO,is like said, a newer CEO does not live in the same state where the headquarters is. And is not going to be actually even moving to live by this particular policy in the office, because that would be too disruptive to this person’s lifestyle.
[00:05:56] Jason Lauritsen: And so I was like, okay, this is where we’re at, right? This is one example of [00:06:00] where it’s at and how it’s going. And then, so I thought that was interesting. And then the other story was, well, actually there’s three stories. The other one I thought was interesting was just actually yesterday. I was talking to, uh, an HR leader who. We were talking about,keeping people connected and keeping employees feeling connected in this more distributed workplace. And, uh, and he said, kind of the situation I’m in is he said, my team has been shifting and the organization is less location dependent now, but he said, I’ve learned through how difficult it is to keep people connected.
[00:06:33] Jason Lauritsen: I’ve been starting to hire all of my people kind of in the same geographic location, so it’s at least easier to get people together, but he said, and most of the people he’s hiring are early career, first, second job out of school. So they’re fairly young. And he said, You know, our corporate policy, and he sort of air quoted it, right?
[00:06:52] Jason Lauritsen: Policy is three days in the office, two days out. That’s the hybrid policy. And he said, I am [00:07:00] fighting, fighting to get them to come into the office even two days a week. He’s like, they just don’t, my input, my people just don’t want to come in. And so he said, I’m, doing my best to get them in, but he said two days, two days a week is a battle.
[00:07:15] Jason Lauritsen: And so I thought that was another sort of interesting layer. He’s like the younger employees on my team just don’t have an interest or desire to come in. So that was interesting. And then the third thing I’ll throw on top of this pile of, interesting topics that we can all pull strings on is,a story about my wife and my wife is actually, uh, she works in contract type of roles and so she’ll, you know, it might be a, a year or six months or whatever it is, and she’s got,her contract, this particular contract is coming up at the end of the year, we think, and so I was asking her.
[00:07:52] Jason Lauritsen: By nature of being, you know, the way I am and the work I’m in, right? I’m always trying to help by not, but not being too helpful. Right. Cause nobody wants to be [00:08:00] career coached by their spouse or anything. So I just asked her, I said, what do you think, like, what do you think you want? Like what’s most important in the next, Like your next contract.
[00:08:12] Jason Lauritsen: And I should say the contract work is a newer thing for her. So I’m like,what’s most important? What do you think you want it to look like? What do you want it to be, right? Thinking she’d say something about the work or the impact, or I don’t know what she was going to say. The first thing she said is, well, I definitely, I definitely want the flexibility that I have now working from home. That was the top thing before what she was doing, before who she’s working for, before anything. And I, I’ve been reflect, I was reflecting on that and thinking, I think that comes up with a lot of people that I’ve been talking with lately. And so, and so I, I guess I just wanted to share that as a, baseline foundation for this conversation or exploration on this topic.
[00:08:55] Jason Lauritsen: Number one, to see how it compares with. What the rest of you are [00:09:00] hearing or experiencing about hybrid work, but also just to highlight the complexity of what’s happening and the thing that I’ll, offer up just as kind of a last bit to, to throw on the pile here of things to discuss is, uh, You know, a couple pieces of data about where we actually are.
[00:09:20] Jason Lauritsen: And so Gallup has a,they have kind of, they’re regularly surveying and measuring kind of how jobs, at least in the U S,the one I’m looking at, this is U S data, sort of what it looks like today. And what they’re saying today, based on the most current data they have posted is hybrid is employees are working 54 percent of employees surveyed are in hybrid situations.
[00:09:45] Jason Lauritsen: 27 percent are exclusively remote, 20 percent exclusively onsite.,the number that’s the, the trend line that’s moving up is hybrid.,the other two, right, at least right [00:10:00] now, the fully remote is flat. The onsite fully is trending down a touch. So that’s kind of the state of the union relative to where we are. With how things are, at least according to Gallup, there’s a lot of different data out there, but that’s according to Gallup. The other thing I thought was interesting is Deloitte had, some research that they do about connected consumer. And as a part of that, they ask about hybrid or remote work and that sort of thing.
[00:10:25] Jason Lauritsen: And so their most recent report was, um, 20, end of 2023. So it’s, the data is not too old. It’s fairly recent. A couple of things in that, their, their findings, I thought were kind of First, hybrid workers expressed higher job satisfaction than other workers. and I thought this was super interesting, at least 8 in 10 of these hybrid workers reported that relationships with family members, colleagues, and managers have improved or stayed the same compared to when they [00:11:00] worked fully in the office. So relationships, at least by their perception, hybrid workers, all relationships have stayed the same or gotten better than when they were in the office full time. Thought that was interesting. however, at the same time, at the same time, these same hybrid workers are more likely to feel disconnected from on site colleagues and say that their collaboration efforts are ineffective.
[00:11:25] Jason Lauritsen: They’re also more likely to be distracted by non work activities. To have difficulty assessing work files and to feel stress and burnout. They say they have a hard time prioritizing their wellbeing. So,these are the hybrid workers. And so I just think all of this is interesting to throw in the mix.
[00:11:45] Jason Lauritsen:,we’re in transition, right? Said third inning of the ball game. There’s a whole lot of ball game, I think, left to sort out. And so I thought I would offer that up as a starting point mark for us to, to jump off
[00:11:56] Mark Wright: What’s interesting, when you mentioned relationships, Jason, [00:12:00] that relationships improve with hybrid work, you’re a firm believer that work is a relationship and that when we have good relationships, we’re generally happier at work, right?
[00:12:12] Jason Lauritsen: and that we are, so that’s, that was the finding that jumped out at me that I thought was really interesting. I’d love to know more about that particular finding. I mean, it’s one of those that sounds intriguing, but it’s a pretty big data set. And I think there’s probably a lot of nuance in there about it.
[00:12:29] Jason Lauritsen: But the thing that I think is most important is I think that of your relationship isn’t necessarily dependent to how you’re working, right? You can, foster relationships on site. You can foster relationships remotely. You can foster relationships in a hybrid setting. It has to be a priority.
[00:12:47] Jason Lauritsen: I thought it was, I think this is fascinating because I think the narrative is typically that if you’re more remote that your relationships tend to . At least work relationships certainly tend to suffer. And,this would at [00:13:00] least suggest that,maybe we can, I mean, it’s more about sort of what we’re doing with the relationship and that there’s some things about hybrid that perhaps actually even enable a relationship to stay healthy or be healthy, compared to some of the, options on either end of the poll with either fully onsite or fully remote.
[00:13:19] Jason Lauritsen: So I thought that was pretty curious.
[00:13:21] Mark Wright: A couple of and then I’ll open it up to the group.,it struck me that human beings just don’t like change. We don’t like change. And when you first started out, Jason, you said, we’re rushing to this finish line. Like, are we done yet? Because we want a final answer. Where is work going to be?
[00:13:36] Mark Wright: Because when we all entered the workforce, that was an answered question. You drive to work and you park your car and you go in a building. And what I think is interesting about this shift that was already on, as you mentioned, before the pandemic even started, but like in big metro areas, like in Seattle, people spend at least.
[00:13:55] Mark Wright: Anywhere from an hour to two hours a day in their cars, [00:14:00] that if they’re working from home, that two hours can be used to get your work done faster, not just sitting in a car.
[00:14:07] Mark Wright:,and something also that struck me, Jason was,
[00:14:10] Mark Wright:,we did a, Really great episode with Ana Laiata on the BEATS WORKING podcast about generational differences.
[00:14:16] Mark Wright: And what’s really clear is that the shift to hybrid, the shift to remote work is very much defined by the various generations in the workplace. And the younger generations are now demanding. Demanding some of these things that when we entered the workforce, as many of us boomers,
[00:14:35] Mark Wright:,we couldn’t make those demands.
[00:14:36] Mark Wright:,but now,
[00:14:37] Mark Wright: that’s, it’s a different, different ballgame based on the generations and their expectations of what work should be. Um, I’d love to open it up to the panel. Who, who’d like
[00:14:47] Mark Wright:,to give me some of their thoughts on what we’ve talked about so far. And don’t be bashful because we’ll edit out the bashful part.
[00:14:54] Mark Wright: James.
[00:14:57] Dr James Bryant: Yeah, I was going to just dive a little bit. [00:15:00] I’m going to talk a little bit anecdotally on that data because part of that doesn’t make sense to me. You’re telling me that relationships are better, but you feel more disconnected. That, to me, relationships are about the level of connectedness part of what you feel.
[00:15:15] Dr James Bryant: And relationships could be better if I’m working remotely. If I have personality issues with the people that are in the office that I have to see every day. Now I no longer have to see them every day. Therefore, I can report the relationship is better. But did it really help the relationship or did it remove that barrier or the agitant to that relationship?
[00:15:37] Dr James Bryant: So it’s just thinking about the correlation between relationship and connectedness and making sure that as we’re talking about this, that we’re honing in on that connection piece.
[00:15:48] Mark Wright: Yeah, that’s a great observation. And I love that a dog barked during our discussion of hybrid work, because back in the old days, if a dog barked during a meeting, it would be frowned on. [00:16:00] Julia, what about you? James? Those are great observations.
[00:16:03] Julia Waller: On that point, I really appreciate that we’re a little bit more relaxed about things like that now, because I think in the, in the olden days before the pandemic, we were, I was, I’ll speak for myself, you know, super careful about the front stage and how you’re coming across. And now there’s just so much more.
[00:16:17] Julia Waller: You can see people’s personalities and their, what’s in their background, your drum set, Mark, and, you know, your dog, Jason, and all of that. Kind of cool stuff, which to me actually enhances relationship because I get to know a little bit more about the person by seeing their environment if they’re showing it or whatever, which some people do.
[00:16:33] Julia Waller: And some people don’t. I mean, I think this is such a conversation around. It depends, right? It depends on your generation. It depends on. Like for me, I’ve been at the company almost 26 years. I’ve got really deep relationships with a lot of people at our company. So it was not a big deal for me to be all of a sudden virtual and then,to go hybrid because, well, I had other issues about going hybrid and I can share that as well.
[00:16:58] Julia Waller: But,I have deep [00:17:00] relationships already, whereas some of the newer people in our company, Coming on board, being on board, and how are they going to create relationships when nobody’s around, you know, they don’t know who to reach out to for what they can’t just go and knock on the door or walk into an office or happen to see someone in the cafe and walk by and say, oh, excuse me, who do I talk to for this?
[00:17:17] Julia Waller: Or, oh, hey, hi, you know, what’s your name? You know, there are so many,for me, the personal connections that happen. In the office are hard to replace, and the happenstance, it’s the, you know, it’s just,the synchronicity moment when someone happens to walk by and mention something that you’re like, oh, that’s perfect.
[00:17:34] Julia Waller: That’s exactly what I needed to hear in that moment. You can’t do that when everybody’s at home and you’re not all on Zoom together at the same time, right? So,I mean, I’m one of those people who was very grateful at first to be fully virtual because I had the situation of rushing back and forth from the office, you know, solo mom running home to get to the daycare before it closes.
[00:17:58] Julia Waller: My, you know, my daughter’s just finished sixth [00:18:00] grade, but You know, young enough to be in elementary school, doesn’t come home by herself, so I’m like on duty, rushing back and forth, and I, I was, it was very stressful. And uh, early mornings, later nights, you get home later, you start dinner later, you get to bed later, you don’t have as much time together with your family, things like that.
[00:18:16] Julia Waller: So I was, it was like this huge relief when we were got, went virtual and we have great teamwork in our company. That’s one of our big focuses. So we had no problem really being able to adjust.,and then going back was a whole different story, right? Cause I was pretty firmly in that. I like this freedom and flexibility.
[00:18:33] Julia Waller: You mentioned flexibility with your wife, Jason. I love the flexibility of it and the freedom, more freedom of time that I have. Where I’m not having to do that drive in our traffic right now in Toronto, if anyone’s been here lately, it’s horrible, you know, and I’m sure it is in lots of places. So you’re, you’re also increasing the stress in that way.
[00:18:52] Julia Waller: So when that was relieved, then the thought of going back in the office, a lot of us resisted it. And I was one of those resistors, I’ll fully admit [00:19:00] that I was. And now that we’ve gone back, we’ve, we’ve,a strategy that sort of maximizes our ability to be on site for our clients, because we have members of our program who come into our physical office.
[00:19:12] Julia Waller: So we’re, we’re all in on those days,when we have clients in the office, all of our whole team is now expected to come in for those certain days. And then we’ve started to add extra days as well to have days when you weren’t all. with the clients, right? So that there were other days where you could just connect with someone.
[00:19:30] Julia Waller: And I think one of the biggest things I’ve gotten out of that is those personal connections, personal relationship, even just personal conversations, quite honestly, that I wouldn’t have had before, which then deepens the connections with, with the people at, the office.,and then I have those other days when I don’t have to stress, I don’t have to drive.
[00:19:47] Julia Waller: I have more time with my kiddo and all of those things. So for me, it’s turned out to be a nice balance, but it was, we don’t like, I think a lot of us don’t like change, especially when it’s being put upon you and you value your autonomy and your [00:20:00] freedom.
[00:20:00] Mark Wright: Yeah.
[00:20:01] Julie Pham: Yeah, so I’m going to react to some of the things that Jason shared and then I’m going to share with you some things that I’m seeing with our clients in their workplaces. So Jason, I love that example you give of the CEO who required in office and yet he wasn’t going to do it himself because I think that the problem with hybrid and the hybrid policies is it breeds a lot of resentment because actually what’s happening is people aren’t following the rules and that creates a sense of this is not fair and so rather than just, hey, what’s the lowest common denominator that people can actually, what’s the thing that people can actually do? Instead, we create this ideal, and then we know that so many people, including maybe even the CEO, doesn’t want to follow it. And then it creates this do as I say, not as I do. And then people are kind of just watching, well, they don’t have to go or why aren’t they getting caught or, or that, what is that, that badge swiping, just that, token I’m in and out.
[00:20:55] Julie Pham: And so I think it’s really forcing these conversations around what do [00:21:00] we actually enforce. And, and that is, it’s, If leaders can’t actually follow through on what they are saying the policies are, then that actually opens up a whole new can of worms. So that’s one thing. The other thing I’m going to say about, I find that people who really insist on being in person, the leaders who really insist on being in person, tend to be more extroverted.
[00:21:24] Julie Pham: They’re just like, this works for me. This is what I think we need. And, and as someone who is generally an extrovert, but also has a lot of strong introvert tendencies, my team, by the way, is all remote across three different states. I think that in that remote work, work requires being more intentional and that’s what people are resisting.
[00:21:45] Julie Pham: They don’t want to actually do the work of intentional conversations. They don’t want to actually, Oh, when we meet, are we just going to talk about the weather or the, in Seattle, the rising cost of real estate, right? Or that small talk, or are we actually going to have some [00:22:00] meaningful conversations with the limited time that we have?
[00:22:02] Julie Pham: How are we going to facilitate a space of intentional conversations? Conversation Intentional Relationship Building. So now I want to get into some of the things that I’m seeing with my clients. So I like to do a lot of polling when we do workshops and some of the, one of the questions I’ll ask is what causes misalignment around understanding respect in your workplace?
[00:22:23] Julie Pham: And then I give people this list of all these factors that they can check all that and consistently working remotely is the lowest. voted, ranked the lowest. And people choose that. It’s not an issue. And actually, what comes up a lot is lack of clarity from leadership, lack of using communication tools, departmental differences.
[00:22:45] Julie Pham: And so for a lot of people, it’s not actually about working remotely. It’s about how do you, it’s not about what are you going to do with the time that you have? And then something else that we like to ask people, So we, think of curiosity as a practice, having these elements of self awareness, relationship building, [00:23:00] and clear communication.
[00:23:01] Julie Pham: So I’ll ask people, okay, what do you think your colleagues need to improve in? Check all that apply. And so it’s,make time for self reflection, build new relationships, deepen existing relationships, listen to understand, ask questions when we don’t understand, give specific examples and stories. And then I ask, what do you need to improve in? And so what I find interesting is there’s actually,oftentimes I listen well, but my colleagues don’t. So that’s interesting. And then the other thing, though, I want to bring up here is there’s actually a difference between building relationships and deepening existing relationships.
[00:23:36] Julie Pham: Because what we’re also seeing is that there’s this divide between those who started working during the pandemic, Who’d never got to know people. And then those who, like you said, Julia,you’ve been at your company for over 20 years. You’ve got all these deep relationships that you can tap into. And so those people are just, well, not as big of a deal.
[00:23:52] Julie Pham: The build new relationships is where we find people struggling more because it’s, how do you build new relationships when you are, uh, [00:24:00] when you don’t get to be together? And I’ll just say one last thing about what we’re seeing with clients is. Because we do, we’ll do a lot of retreat facilitation and people are just, we need to do this more regularly. And they’re in person with it. We need to do this more regularly. I think we need to do this on a quarterly basis. And I think that speaks to, if you’re going to have people come into the office, make it worth it. Make it worth their time. And so it could actually be much more effective to have a monthly or a quarterly retreat, just, this is the time we are here to connect versus just, well, when it happens, it happens.
[00:24:34] Julie Pham: Just come in randomly, uh, connect with one another.
[00:24:37] Mark Wright: Julie, thank you so much for that. Julia, let’s go to you. And then I want to check in with Jason on that. Go ahead.
[00:24:42] Julia Waller: Yeah, I’ll just tag team on your last comment, because I think that was one of our issues. We were coming back into the office and then I’d go back and a lot of people. So we have a certain number of days that we can take remote. So to give that flexibility still, even of the days that were expected back in the office.
[00:24:57] Julia Waller: So, I’d come in and the hallway would be empty down by my [00:25:00] office and I come in, I’d eat lunch by myself. Like, I couldn’t even find somebody to connect with, because it wasn’t sort of this intentional gathering. So in order to, to solve that issue, we’ve started creating special days, the VIP days, we’re calling them vision innovation planning days, but basically it’s like a team meeting and so it’s kind of like your retreat idea where we all come in,there’s an agenda, there’s different fun parts of it, and there’s a lot of connection, there’s a lot of conversation, there’s a strategy, there’s ideas that are happening to grow the company and get everybody collaborating and stuff like that.
[00:25:33] Julia Waller: And I think since we’ve put those in, it’s been much better because. Like you’re saying, Julia, you have to be much more intentional about things and to be more strategic about the time that you’ve got in there so that everybody isn’t wandering around and not being able to connect with people, but we’re actually sitting down.
[00:25:47] Julia Waller: We’re all in there for sure on those days. And then we’re getting to,expand our connections, our conversations and, collaborate in a more productive way. So that’s really helped for us.
[00:25:59] Mark Wright: Boy, Jason, what I’m [00:26:00] hearing over and over is intentional communication is really key to this. during your episode of BEATS WORKING, you really led us through how to check in with people. And I’m just thinking back to my decades in television news. Some of the best and most meaningful conversations happened when I turned my chair around And my co anchor sat directly behind me in the newsroom and would just engage with her on topics from racism to family, whatever.
[00:26:29] Mark Wright: And that deepened our relationship in a way that never would have happened remotely. And, uh, and I’m a little bit troubled by the fact that it is so hard to deepen those relationships when we’re all spread out. I’d love some expert advice from you, Jason, on what, what we can do in this new environment to intentionally build and deepen those relationships.
[00:26:54] Jason Lauritsen: Well, I think I like the, I mean, I completely agree with this double clicking [00:27:00] on intentionality because I do think that’s at the heart of why we’re struggling with so much of this, because the reality was pre pandemic, we sucked at management. As a general rule, we sucked at communicating as a general rule.
[00:27:18] Jason Lauritsen: We sucked at having good conversations as a general rule in the workplace. And then along comes COVID blows us all apart into the, you know, distributed,places where now the level of difficulty. Increased, our skill level stayed the same. And all of a sudden we’re confronted with the fact that we suck at these things.
[00:27:41] Jason Lauritsen: And we need, we can’t continue to suck at these things if we’re going to live in this new world. And so there, and I’m not, there’s no blaming to go. It just is what it is. It’s where we were and it’s where we are and we need to address these. It’s no coincidence that all four of us on this. on this panel are all somehow [00:28:00] engaged in helping leaders and teams and people suck less at these things, right?
[00:28:04] Jason Lauritsen: That’s what we’re all trying to do in our own journeys. What you just said really clicked for me. One of the things that I have been concerned about in this conversation about hybrid and remote work for the last several years is that I think one of the things that happens frequently is we conflate the value of.
[00:28:26] Jason Lauritsen: In person face to face time together with being in the office together. And those two things, as we all know, are not the same thing, right?,they can be, but often they are not right there. There’s a huge Cigna study that. They actually did a couple of big surveys. The last one was published in 2020, right before the pandemic hit.
[00:28:50] Jason Lauritsen: That was a study of loneliness in the workplace and it startling like two thirds of employees reported feeling lonely in the workplace. And [00:29:00] this is when everybody had to go into the work and sit next to each other in cubicles. And so,It’s not as if this is a new problem. I think it is a, a problem that has existed.
[00:29:10] Jason Lauritsen: And I think the reason it’s existed is because we don’t spend our time together with real intention, which is what you’re suggesting. I think that the key in that is, as you mentioned, One of the things I say all the time in my work is time is the currency of relationships. And so I think that’s another complicating factor we have right now is that people are having to sit in more meetings.
[00:29:37] Jason Lauritsen: The hybrid workplace has actually created more meetings and more stuff and more busyness. And so there’s also, it’s harder to find time. And so we do need to make space. I think Julie, what you described is exactly I’m hearing that from lots and lots of clients, it’s intentional. So if we’re going to come together, we’re going to come together.
[00:29:58] Jason Lauritsen: And Julie, I think you mentioned this [00:30:00] too, for the purpose of being together to connect, to talk, to have conversations, to collaborate. That’s why we’re here and having very clear focus and intention. around that. And,so I think that’s, I mean, it’s literally that simple. I mean, I don’t have a secret other than, I mean, you can go back and listen to the, the episode or the podcast episode, Mark, where we talked about my check in.
[00:30:24] Jason Lauritsen: I mean, that’s what I over and over and over is like, it’s, we need very simple ways to just invite people into real conversations because people are starving for it, but none of us are slowing down and issuing the invitation to actually have it. And so,But have good time, you know, making time to be together is really important.
[00:30:44] Mark Wright: Julie, and then James.
[00:30:46] Julie Pham: Thank you. I think that there’s a big focus on how we’re having the conversation and not what we’re talking about when we have that time. And I, Jason, as you were talking, I just, I thought about this. We’re just forced to have a communicate differently. And if you [00:31:00] think about a long distance relationship or any time in a relationship, you have to spend some of that long distance.
[00:31:08] Julie Pham: I’ve been in long distance relationships. It forces me to communicate differently and it’s actually for the better. It’s much more intentional because we can’t just sit next to each other, watching TV. It’s, it’s actually, no, we have to, with that time that we have.
[00:31:22] Mark Wright: What do you mean you’re unhappy? We spent four
[00:31:24] Julie Pham: I mean, I remember, I remember,
[00:31:26] Julie Pham: I’ll
[00:31:26] Jason Lauritsen: you saying that’s bad? I’m I’m confused.
[00:31:29] Julie Pham: I’ll just remember being in a long distance relationship.
[00:31:32] Julie Pham: One year I was in Vietnam and this was back when they didn’t have internet at home or it was very expensive. So I would go to the internet cafe. And write this email that had to encapsulate my whole day. And this was the time because, and then phone calls were 30 cents a minute. Right. I had to be so intentional.
[00:31:52] Julie Pham:,and then sometimes the internet would, the power would go out and just, Oh, you know, and so I just, I think it’s about how do we be intentional with the [00:32:00] time that we have? And that’s actually, it goes, we can see it in all kinds of relationships.
[00:32:06] Mark Wright: That is, there’s so much wisdom in what you’re all saying in terms of intentionality and being present.,James, I’d love to explore a little bit more. You work mostly with engineers and types like that, STEM type jobs. Your mantra is how to win at home and at work. What’s interesting about our economy, we’re mostly a service based economy.
[00:32:25] Mark Wright: So when you think about it, we’re, most of us are not building widgets and putting them in boxes and sending them. So it’s interesting that, you know, a lot of this work can be done remotely. When you talk to engineers, you know, they’re designing things, but they do have to go to job sites. James, how is this all playing out in, in the world of engineering for you?
[00:32:44] Dr James Bryant: know, there is a segment of the engineering world where you do have this hybrid environment where you do have some,remote work locations, but then you have,the other side of engineering where you have to have people there in the field and people that are repairing widgets and building [00:33:00] widgets and,They need to be there.
[00:33:02] Dr James Bryant: And so to some degree you have this dichotomy between those two groups. You have the folks that are more in the office, the folks that are more field oriented, the folks that are more field oriented, they love where they are, they want to be that they want to work outside, they want to be out, and that is kind of their jam.
[00:33:19] Dr James Bryant: But when we talk about the, this remote or hybrid environment, it’s interesting because we, come back to the discussion. About remote or hybrid, but we’ve mentioned it just recently. It’s not about to me, whether you’re in the office, whether you’re remote or whether you’re a hybrid is how do we best manage the connections, productivity and relationships in that, whatever that environment is.
[00:33:47] Dr James Bryant: And so when we talk about being intentional, it’s not just about intentional with our in office time. It’s intentional with our. Zoom meetings with our work meetings, with whatever it is that we’re [00:34:00] doing. How can we best use that time? And how can we be productive? You know, if, as Jason said, time is the currency of relationships.
[00:34:08] Dr James Bryant: How can we then use that time to help increase that currency, to increase that flow so that we can strengthen those connections? So yes, they’re engineers that love working behind a computer, doing a design, doing some code. They don’t want to be bothered with anybody else. But guess what? There comes a time when they have to share their ideals with people that are non engineers.
[00:34:31] Dr James Bryant: And the more interaction that you have, and the more kind of cross pollinization that you have, you’re better prepared to be able to have those conversations.
[00:34:39] Mark Wright: Yeah, I’d like to jump on something that Julie said, and then I’ll get to you, Jason. Julie, I think it was really wise when you said there needs to be a reason. And I’m just thinking that employers need to come up with ways, creative ways, of bringing their people together for a reason, in a way that will bring them closer together.
[00:34:59] Mark Wright: [00:35:00] And before, you know, just after I left broadcasting, I spent, you know, Five minutes in the mortgage lending industry before interest rates started soaring. But one of the things that I did is I organized a social activity that brought realtors and lenders together. And I called up food lifeline, this huge food bank in Seattle.
[00:35:19] Mark Wright: And I said, Hey, I’d love to do a social,can you guys accommodate us? And they said, absolutely. So we had 50 or 60 people come together. We packed food for an hour and then we had, You know,snacks afterward and just had a social at the food bank and that brought all of us so much closer together because there was a reason to,for us to be together.
[00:35:41] Mark Wright: We were doing good for the community, which also felt, really good. But I, I just think that employers have to get really creative now and figure out ways of, of bringing people together in a way that actually feels good. Because. You’re right. If we, want to connect with somebody on zoom,it’s going to be weird.
[00:35:57] Mark Wright: If I say, Hey, Bob, let’s zoom a [00:36:00] little bit later. And I’m going to talk about golf for 10 minutes. And then what our kids are doing for another 10 minutes. And it’s like, I think that would feel weird. Like, what are you trying to sell me in a multi level marketing scheme or
[00:36:11] Dr James Bryant: But Mark, it may feel weird to you, but for some generations, they connect through text messages. They don’t want to talk. They’re just going to text, and that’s fine for them. So when you think about what’s weird, what’s useful, what’s beneficial, you have to keep that lens on as well.
[00:36:27] Mark Wright: Yeah, Jason.
[00:36:29] Jason Lauritsen: So one of the things I just wanted to kind of reset and run something by the panel, is I’ll go on record and say, I think hybrid is stupid. I think it is a terrible approach. I think it’s, something that we’ve arrived at in the middle because it seems like flexibility, but it’s not really.
[00:36:45] Jason Lauritsen: And I think at the heart of the issue is. If you talk to people, I think what people and Julie, I think you keyed on this earlier, what people really want, I believe are flexibility and agency, and they [00:37:00] want the flexibility to figure out how to make work work better. And James, kind of what you’re saying is like.
[00:37:05] Jason Lauritsen: The people in the field, they know how to make that work. That this is what they want. They need the flexibility. And oftentimes field workers have kind of the best kind of flexibility because they, they know what needs to be done. They manage their time and schedule and their resources, flexibility, and then the agency to make decisions about that flexibility. To best suit them, to work for them. So if that’s what employees want, I think the reason it’s not working and the reason hybrid is a stupid solution is hybrid is not flexible. Like everybody talks like hybrids, flexible, hybrid is just a different way of organizations telling you where you need to be.
[00:37:44] Jason Lauritsen: And when you need to work, that is not flexible. That is. Inflexibly telling you when you need to be at the office and when you need to be at home. That is not flexible. I’m sorry. It just isn’t. Flexibility is I can make my work schedule work [00:38:00] around things that are needed, right? What are the requirements?
[00:38:03] Jason Lauritsen: The reason it’s breaking down, I believe is for, I think there’s two big issues. One, Julie mentioned, Already is clarity, a lack of clarity. We are terrible at measuring and managing performance. So as an organization, we aren’t entirely sure how to measure exactly what you’re doing or what’s good enough and what’s not good enough.
[00:38:26] Jason Lauritsen: And so instead we talk about productivity, which is really about, can we squeeze as much as possible out of you, which I think is a very old school notion of how to manage. So we have a lack of clarity around what’s expected and what’s enough. BEATS WORKING. And then we have a lack of trust. The reason all of this isn’t working is because executives still don’t trust employees often to behave like adults.
[00:38:50] Jason Lauritsen: And to do the best they can and to meet performance expect expectations. And so they’re terrified of flexibility. So instead we get this facade of [00:39:00] flexibility called hybrid three days in the office, two days, wherever else you want to go. And so that’s why I think it’s, I, that’s why I don’t think it there’s so much tension still around it is that we’re trying to.
[00:39:13] Jason Lauritsen: It’s not really getting at the, real issues until we fix the clarity and the trust issues. We’re never going to be able to give or create the kind of flexibility and agency that I think employees need to be their best. So that would be my, that’s my read on why things are so messy right now. And I’m curious to see if that aligns or if others disagree with me.
[00:39:35] Mark Wright: Yeah, I, I love that, Jason, because. When I first started at this company work P2P, Dan Rogers, my boss,I was shocked when he said,if you’re looking for a job description, I don’t have one, you’re not going to get one. It’s be Mark and be awesome. And I was like, what? And I came from such a structured environment.
[00:39:56] Mark Wright: And he said, here’s a crazy idea, Mark. I trust you. [00:40:00] and I trust that you’re going to use your time wisely. And I trust that you’re going to figure this stuff out. And I was like, holy shit, holy crap, this is all on me. But I’ll tell you when you have an employer who truly does trust, uh, in, in us, it’s a completely different dynamic.
[00:40:21] Mark Wright: I work harder than I’ve ever worked before because I don’t want to let that guy down. Uh, we only have a four day work week, so I’ve got to be really intentional with my time. And I think that’s, I mean, that’s Dan’s vision to redeem work, to change work is exactly what you just said, Jason, is to create that ecosystem whereby people are fully actualized, where people are developed to their highest potential because of the environment they’re in.
[00:40:48] Mark Wright: And it’s just what you said in the podcast episode,Jason, the cultivation mindset. It’s not about telling you to do this, and that, which I love that you called hybrid crap, because it really [00:41:00] is inflexibility, just more defined. It’s more defined inflexibility. I’m kind of rambling, but what I’m getting to is that this whole mission to redeem work,is one of the ways that we can fix this problem with quote unquote hybrid.
[00:41:15] Mark Wright: Anybody else want to ramble or get on a soapbox? This, this could be fun. Julia, at, uh, at Strategic Coach,your superpower is to get people to understand what their unique abilities are. And I’m, thinking that there must be a unique ability chapter to this because as we look at quote unquote hybrid work, Where we work, how we work. It seems to me that you must have had a lot of conversations with people about knowing who they are first, before they then decide how they show up at work.
[00:41:48] Mark Wright: Would you love to, uh,
[00:41:50] Julia Waller: I can try to connect those dots a little bit. I think, I mean, I think one of the things when, when Jason was saying, you know, we’re, we suck at communication and clarity. And I think [00:42:00] that’s actually one of the things our company does a decent, you know, doesn’t mean we couldn’t be better. But,Because we’re each operating in our area of unique ability, that means we’re not, it’s not like we just have to do our job description, do it whether you like it or not.
[00:42:13] Julia Waller: It’s like, okay, these activities are kind of designed in alignment with what you love doing and what you’re best at. So that means someone else is doing the other stuff that might have been on my job description, which means I now have to be a good communicator and a good team player in order to connect and connect the dots and pass the baton.
[00:42:30] Julia Waller: In the relay race, so we’ve, you know, in some ways we’ve had to become good community. It’s harder to do unique ability teamwork because there is more communication required and better teamwork skills. And not everybody has those not everybody’s developed those or cultivated or been, taught those.
[00:42:45] Julia Waller: So we’ve had to, which I think is why we’re the most. We were able to switch gears pretty quickly and we trusted each other. And there’s a lot of trust. Like I have a ton of autonomy with what I do. Nobody checks up on me. So I already have a lot of autonomy, which was [00:43:00] great. And there’s a lot of trust.
[00:43:01] Julia Waller:,and so, you know, when people are in their unique ability, They’re much more engaged in what they’re doing.,they’re passionate. They’re going to work, work their asses off because they love what they’re doing, right, ideally. Now that’s not, everybody’s in that a hundred percent of the time. And that’s where we’re working towards being.
[00:43:17] Julia Waller: And we do that with our clients and you know, it’s tricky. It’s interesting when you say, you know, it sucks. And, and I, you know, Part of me is like, yes. And part of me is like, no.,and then there’s the Dan T. Rogers version, which is completely radical for how most people think, right? Where there’s complete and utter trust and you get to make up your own role.
[00:43:37] Julia Waller: We haven’t gone that far. And for me, we’re kind of balancing the needs of our clients because these, this is what we do is we work with people who come into our office space. And I can’t just say, well, I want total flexibility and I want total autonomy. Screw you. I’m not coming into the office. You know, we’ve got people to serve at the office and we could say, well, only the admin team or the workshop resource team,they should come in and [00:44:00] do it all.
[00:44:00] Julia Waller: It’s like, well, but then where’s the rest of, where, where are we all? So we kind of went for the, we’re all in this boat together. All of these clients are why we’re here, and so we’re all going to go in on those days. And that felt like, you know, that made sense to me, logically. That didn’t feel like a weird, you know, now that’s our situation.
[00:44:18] Julia Waller: We have clients come into the office, so we, we need to serve those people.,and make sure they have a wonderful, fantastic experience. Cause if they’re not coming back, then I don’t have, I don’t have a job, right? So, it made sense. It wasn’t random. You know, whereas other people, random, come in these two days, and then again you can’t find anybody down the hall.
[00:44:37] Julia Waller: That, that, that sucks. You know, I wouldn’t want that. I wouldn’t want to just be told, you have to come in for no good reason, and then I come in and there’s nobody there anyway. Uh, and then adding on those extra VIP days, I think, has made a big difference because it is more strategic, which I think is what the idea of intentional means to me.
[00:44:53] Julia Waller: You’re not just being willy nilly about it. You’re going to be strategic about those dates. But that took a bit for us to figure out. At first, we didn’t figure that out yet. [00:45:00] So there was a lot of. And I still, it’s not perfect. It feels like there is a little bit more management of, Oh, did you take how many remote days have you taken?
[00:45:08] Julia Waller: And it feels like there’s a little bit more, you know, counting up your hours and stuff like that, which I don’t love.,and then I also see the other, I can almost see both sides. So then I go to the other side, it’s like, well, Sure. I want it to be fair. You know, I want, I don’t want someone to feel ripped off,that they, uh, or someone who’s taking advantage.
[00:45:25] Julia Waller: Now, if someone’s taking advantage of the system, you know, if you don’t trust the people, are they the right people in your company and, you know, should they even be there in the first place would be where I would go with that, because I’m going to be trusted. And if I’m not trusted, then I probably shouldn’t be here.
[00:45:39] Julia Waller: So that’s my ramble for you, Mark.
[00:45:41] Mark Wright: Yeah. Good, good thoughts, Julia. Uh, Julie.
[00:45:45] Julie Pham: so I’m a huge fan of remote work and how it’s about empowering people and trusting them. I think that there is an exception. And that exception is with people who are new to the workforce. I’m not going to talk about generational. Because you could be, you could be whatever age [00:46:00] and this is you are new to the workforce.
[00:46:02] Julie Pham: And I think in that case,I’ve read studies, I can’t, cite the stats, though it’s just, that’s where they really suffer because they actually could use more coaching. They could use more of that opportunity to ask for help. And if you’re new, a lot of times they don’t know that they can ask for help, or it’s just, I’m supposed to know, and it’s easier to hide when you’re remote.
[00:46:23] Julie Pham: It’s easier to try to figure it out on the internet than just asking someone. And so I think that that’s where, that’s that one segment of the workforce where we really have to see how can we support them,to develop.
[00:46:38] Dr James Bryant: Yeah. And I think that’s a great point. And even in that, to me, that means that if they’re not coming in to the office and they are remote, then what kind of intervention or plans can the organization have in place to intentionally reach out to them to try to build those bridges in. Build those relationships.
[00:46:54] Dr James Bryant: A lot of the discussions that we’ve had has been from the workers or [00:47:00] the employees perspective. And so Julie, I loved your example and story about what you guys did at strategic coach, because it shows something from. Not just the worker perspective, but an organizational perspective. What’s going to be best for the organization?
[00:47:13] Dr James Bryant: A lot of our discussion has been around what’s best for the worker, but what’s going to be best for the organization and how can we balance those two or at least, you know, get the equation working so that we understand there are going to be times when people are going to be more remote and times when they’re going to be more in office, but it’s all in kind of service to the client and the customer.
[00:47:35] Dr James Bryant: Versus I just think everybody needs to be in the office or, Hey, I want all the flexibility in the world and I just want to be at home.,and so the other thing, and I don’t know if you guys have any statistics or thought about this was, does the size of the organization matter when we’re having this conversation?
[00:47:53] Dr James Bryant: It seems to be easier to manage maybe in a small and medium size, but is this, is it the same [00:48:00] kind of discussion? The larger the company gets? I don’t know.
[00:48:02] Mark Wright: Wow, that’s really interesting, James. Jason, any thoughts on that? The size of the organization?
[00:48:07] Jason Lauritsen: well, what I’ve seen, and it’s interesting because it goes back to the, like the story about the guy I was talking to that was struggling with just getting the two people to come into the office, he’s at a large organization, and not all of his team is in the same geographic location. And he said, you know, if it was up to me, what I, he’s like, I wouldn’t worry about the two days a week as much if I could, if I had the budget.
[00:48:32] Jason Lauritsen: To bring everybody together for a couple of days, like once a quarter or something, right? With real intention to connect people together, but he doesn’t have the budget. It’s one of those, this seems to be one of the situations where smaller organizations, at least what I’ve seen, and I might, this is, Totally just a small sample size, but it seems to me like small organizations actually invest at a higher level in this sort of thing than large organizations.
[00:48:57] Jason Lauritsen: And I don’t know, because I think [00:49:00] large organizations, you probably have like financial analysts looking at real estate costs and travel costs, making the decision versus in a small organization, the CEO can like has visibility to all the people or that, you know what I mean? Like they’re closer, they can, they feel it more directly.
[00:49:17] Jason Lauritsen: And so I think that is. I think that is a thing.,I think there is a difference there for sure. I don’t know that it’s universal. And the one thing I would add on that I think is a really important, we just touched on this topic and it’s something I had written down earlier too, when James was talking about the balance, is that I think back to treating employees like adults, like grownups and honoring the fact that I think most people want to do their best and are trying to do their best and want to succeed, I think.
[00:49:46] Jason Lauritsen: We don’t do, I think most, we’re just not taking the time. I think most employees are frustrated with the return to office because they’re being asked to do things for what seems like [00:50:00] no reason or stupid reasons. And when you can give them real, like be like, treat them like they’re adults and tell them why you’re asking this of them.
[00:50:10] Jason Lauritsen: Here’s why we’re asking you to do this. Here’s why we’re making this investment. Here’s why we’re asking our new. It’s not because we are hiring new employees or younger employees or early career employees to spend their first six months in an office location. It’s because of X, Y and Z. And here’s how we’re measuring that.
[00:50:29] Jason Lauritsen: And here’s how we know that matters.,I think one of the things that also broke during the pandemic was that And I think this is a great thing is that before the pandemic, just think about how many years and years and thousands, millions of people had been asking their bosses if they could just telework one day a week, or if they could get some flexibility.
[00:50:50] Jason Lauritsen: And they were told over and over and over, that is not possible. It is not possible for your job. We just can’t, you can’t do that. And then COVID shows up [00:51:00] and two days later, it was made possible. And so the days of the days of the patriarchal response of like, just trust me, we know what’s best are over.
[00:51:09] Jason Lauritsen: Um, and so you can’t, I mean, I, I, James, I think you’re right. I think there should be a balance between the two, but I think the onus is now on the organization to make sure they articulate the why behind these decisions for employees so that then employees can opt in. They, they can choose to come in because they understand why it matters.
[00:51:31] Mark Wright: I chuckled there, Jason, because where I’m sitting right now is where I anchored the news for two months at the start of the pandemic. And if you had told someone that you could anchor an evening newscast in market 12 in the US, they would have laughed at you.,but we made it work.,it wasn’t fun with no teleprompter.
[00:51:49] Mark Wright:,but. But we made it work.,we’re almost at time. What I would love to do is to go around the group and I’d love some advice for that manager, for that business owner [00:52:00] of what you think they could do to make quote unquote, hybrid work, work better.,So, and I’ll end with you, Jason. Uh, and this has been such a rich, rich conversation.
[00:52:15] Mark Wright: James, let’s start with you.,what would you tell. That manager or business owner to give them some hope, guidance, whatever you want to call it, to make this hybrid thing work better.
[00:52:26] Dr James Bryant: Wow. You know, that’s an interesting question. And I know we don’t have hours and hours of time to give the advice. But when I think about, you know, a few things is it has to do with what Jason said earlier. One is give them the opportunity to opt in. Really make the connection and let them know why you want them in the office, what you want to do.
[00:52:49] Dr James Bryant: And I would say the same thing for any kind of the remote meetings that you have as well. Really? Get crystal clear on why you’re meeting and how you’re going to, how you’re looking to [00:53:00] measure your productivity. I would say that’s like, number one. Number two is apply curiosity. Just be curious when you’re talking to your employees, when you’re talking to your staff to see what’s going to work best for your team, keeping in balance what you need as the organization and what they need, uh, from the team as a team, and the third would be give yourself grace, if you’re a manager, you’re a business owner.
[00:53:24] Dr James Bryant: You’re not going to get it right all the time, right? So don’t beat yourself up when you don’t get it right. Give yourself grace.
[00:53:31] Mark Wright: Wow. That’s some, some good advice. It’s interesting, James, that you said curiosity because curiosity based is the company that Julie, uh, has here in Seattle. Julie, let’s go to you,for your advice on how to make this thing work.
[00:53:45] Julie Pham: James, I’m glad that you brought up how leaders need to be able to explain why, and I also think that they need to make the time that people are together worthwhile. Not just giving them reason, just make it worthwhile. Create a sense of FOMO. Wow, [00:54:00] I wish I had gone to that. So, that’s what I would say.
[00:54:04] Mark Wright: Julia.
[00:54:06] Julia Waller: the main ideas that have kind of floated to the top of this conversation are just being summed up right now, which is number one, and I like the way Jason, you just talked about that. Treat people like adults and give them the why. Make it make sense for people. So it’s not just some random thing that you’re putting in place.
[00:54:22] Julia Waller: There has to be some strategy or reason and intentionality has been the word of the hour, I think. And then make it planned, make it, make, give some structure around it, make it fun. We just, we just, we have 120 people or so on our team. We just flew everybody in from the UK, from Chicago and all back into Toronto.
[00:54:38] Julia Waller: We had a whole Team event one day, we had a company meeting the next day, we had a training on negotiation tactics and how to do tactical empathy the other part of the day, like, it was FOMO, like, you would not have wanted to miss those days. They were super fun. They were educational. We learned, we connected, like all the bonding that would happen.
[00:54:57] Julia Waller: Like you’re talking about Mark turning around and talking to [00:55:00] someone, you know, all the teams shared their updates and we heard from every team and it was just such a confidence boosting, amazing experience. I would never want to miss that. So I think the more you can design, but you do have to be intentional and, be willing to see how it goes and then see if there are some holes still that you need to fill.
[00:55:16] Julia Waller: Because you’re not going to have it all figured out. I think your context at the beginning, Jason, like we’re only in the third inning, you know, there is more maybe to figure out. But again, it has to be a good reason behind it. Because right now, to take away people’s flexibility and chance to work from home and just say you have to go all in every day, that’s not going to go over very well.
[00:55:36] Julia Waller: And we have proved, I think, that we can do it. Uh, virtually, even though it’s challenging sometimes, Mark, you don’t have all the right things, but we’ve all kind of pulled it off and pulled it off really, really well. And you can create deep connections virtually and you can use Zoom. We have the technology, which I’m very grateful for.
[00:55:53] Julia Waller:,but I think those are the main points that everyone summed up, which are really,really useful for people.
[00:55:57] Mark Wright: That’s great.,Jason, before I hand it off [00:56:00] to you for the close,I think the thing that just really struck me is that we can all solve this together. I think we, have this idea that for, for so long, we’ve looked to management to solve all of our problems. And what I think can solve this is if each of us decides I’m going to be an intentional participant, a change agent in this, in this labor economy.
[00:56:24] Mark Wright: And I’m going to ask myself in my work environment, what can I do to move the needle, to fix,this problem? Crazy period of change. And I’m confident that there are smart people in every organization. And I think the more agency and the more that we put it on other people to come up with solutions, I think, I think would really help some businesses, but I think this has been such a great opportunity.
[00:56:48] Mark Wright: A great conversation, Jason, because you’re right. We are still trying to figure this stuff out.,why don’t you bring us, bring us home?
[00:56:56] Jason Lauritsen: So I guess my, my closing advice or thoughts [00:57:00] is I think ultimately back to this. This is a complicated issue because of lack of clarity and a lack of trust. And so if we want to resolve, I think this, I think this whole conversation ultimately goes away. If, as an organization, we develop the competency, a deep competency around creating clarity, clarity around, you know, expectations of performance, expectations of behavior, expectations of how we communicate and treat each other.
[00:57:32] Jason Lauritsen: If we get really clear about how we work, what’s expected, how we measure outcomes,if that gets really clear, And employees have crystal clarity about what that looks like for them and looks like for us as a team and us as an organization. And we equip leaders with at least some simple, basic tools for how to have real, meaningful conversations with their [00:58:00] people. You take those two things. Work’s going to work so well that you will stop spending so much damn time worrying about where they are or when they are or what they are doing. Because when people have that kind of clarity and that kind of trust, to your point, Mark, they will do the thing that is necessary to move the organization forward.
[00:58:21] Jason Lauritsen: They will do the thing that’s necessary to care for the customer. They will do the thing that’s necessary to build the team. But until we have. Clarity and trust. We’re going to continue shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, talking about whether we should be here on Wednesday and Friday or Monday and Tuesday, or is three better than two days and whatever, all that’s just distraction and nonsense.
[00:58:44] Jason Lauritsen: We need to get to the heart of the issue. So thank you for making the space for this conversation, Mark. I really appreciate it.
[00:58:50] Mark Wright: That’s, that’s great, Jason. What’s crazy is that all four of the people on this call, not counting me, can be actually hired to improve your organization in [00:59:00] various ways. And we’ll put links in the show notes to how we can get a hold of. Well, this has been so much fun.,and when you first pitched this idea, Jason, I was like, really, he wants to talk about that?
[00:59:09] Mark Wright: And, now I absolutely see why this was such a necessary conversation in this evolution. I think historians are going to look back on this time as a seismic societal change that happened that, uh, I don’t think we’ve seen change. In the workplace like this, to the extent that, that we’re seeing it right now.
[00:59:28] Mark Wright: So thanks to each of you for your wisdom, Jason Lauritsen, Dr. Julie Pham, Dr. James Bryant, and Julia Waller. I appreciate all of you. Thanks for spending time. Hope to see you next time on Contributor’s Corner.