In this episode, we explore the power of saying no and the significance of setting boundaries in both personal and professional life. Our guests share insights on overcoming the fear of declining offers, the impact of always saying yes, and the importance of self-reflection.
Key Takeaways:
- Advocating for Yourself: Understand the value of asserting your needs and negotiating job offers to avoid giving away your power.
- The Simple No: Learn the art of gracefully declining invitations with “thank you and no,” without over-explaining or apologizing.
- Decision Fatigue: Discover how the digital age contributes to decision fatigue and the importance of taking time to respond thoughtfully.
Guests:
-Kristin Graham: former tech executive turned brain science advocate and proponent of slow productivity.
-Dr. James Bryant: engineer and remote work advocate.
-Alysse Bryson: VP of community development at WORKP2P and founder of The Sober Curator.
Resources Mentioned:
- LinkedIn: Kristin Graham, Dr. James Bryant, Alysse Bryson, and Mark Wright
- Kristin Graham’s podcast: “Fewer Things Better“
- Book: “Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear” by Elizabeth Gilbert
Quotes:
“Both yes and no are complete sentences.” – Kristin Graham
“The fear of saying no is often more amplified in our minds than in reality.” – Mark Wright
Listener Challenge:
This week, try using “thank you and no” to decline one non-essential invitation and share your experience with us on social media using #BEATSWORKINGShow.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
[00:00:00] Mark Wright: Welcome to Contributors Corner. On the show this month, how to say no and why it’s actually good for us. Got a panel assembled, going to be led by Kristin Graham, founder of Unlock the Brain.
[00:00:12] Mark Wright: Kristin, before we jump right in, I’m going to introduce the rest of the panel. Dr. James Bryant and my friend, Alysse Bryson, who works with me at WORKP2P. James, explain who you are, if you would, please. And, if people aren’t familiar with your work.
[00:00:26] Dr James Bryant: For those of you that don’t know, my name is Dr.
[00:00:28] Dr James Bryant: James Bryant. I am the founder and president of Engineer Your Success, a boutique leadership development, executive coaching and consulting firm where I help engineers and people with a STEM background design and live a life where they can win at work and at home.
[00:00:43] Mark Wright: Awesome. Alysse Bryson, introduce yourself if you would, my friend.
[00:00:47] Alysse Bryson: Well, thank you, Mark, right? My name is Alysse Bryson, and I’m the Vice President of Community Development at WORKP2P, and I just have my fingers in all kinds of projects.
[00:00:57] Mark Wright: That’s awesome. And [00:01:00] so the cool thing that I love about Contributors Corner is that all of you have had your own episodes, on the BEATS WORKING podcast. I encourage those of you listening to go back and check out those episodes, really great episodes., and especially Kristin, every time you’re on the show, I just look forward to it.
[00:01:16] Mark Wright: And when you pitch the idea of why saying no isn’t is actually good for us. I was like, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner because Kristin, I’ve, I’ve struggled with this my whole life. And as I was thinking about our show today, it, it occurred to me that at about two years old, we learn how to say no. And we say it over and over and over.
[00:01:41] Mark Wright: If you’ve ever been around a two year old, it’s just really annoying. Do you want to take a nap? No. Do you want some juice? No. And it’s just, it’s, it’s this power dynamic that we discover at a very early age. But the flip side of that is that it kind of gets, worked out of us. That it’s bad to say no.[00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Mark Wright: And that you’re somehow disagreeable. So I’m curious, Kristin . Why this topic was so intriguing to you.
[00:02:07] Kristin Graham: For all the reasons that you just said, of course. And a lot of it comes from my research over the years. I’m a former journalist, so I love to dig into things. But as I got more involved in the world of communications and neuroscience and information psychology, I really discovered The nuances that twine together, and that goes from social and gender norms, geocultural elements, and everything that you just said, biologically, no becomes an early thing for us.
[00:02:37] Kristin Graham: But then the conditioning kicks in to how we’re supposed to behave. And that was air quotes for those of you who are just listening. And I found that just as fascinating as I did the intrinsic and external reasons for why we are drawn to say yes or no. So we’ll talk more about that.
[00:02:56] Mark Wright: I forgot to have you introduce yourself, Kristin . So for those who [00:03:00] aren’t familiar with your work, you’ve worked in tech for a long time at pretty high levels, but now you’ve branched out on your own. So tell people about the work that you do now.
[00:03:08] Kristin Graham: Thanks. Yes. I was a corporate nerd for a very long time, over 20 years. And during COVID, which also was a fantastic experiment. and how our social dynamics change. I decided to go out on my own, really doubling down on brain science and exploring a lot around how to do fewer things better. So I’m trying to join the train of slow productivity and a big component of that is how we spend our time and our energy.
[00:03:35] Mark Wright: Yeah. And fewer things better speaks to just, that’s your foundational premise, right? That if you say yes to too many things, you’re going to be spread out too thinly and you’re not going to be really effective at doing anything. Well, Christian, where, where do you want to start with this? Because, you sent me a couple of things, a book title and, uh, an article, that inspired you recently that this is kind of a hot topic in [00:04:00] popular media right now.
[00:04:01] Mark Wright:, where do you want to start?
[00:04:03] Kristin Graham: I want to start with all of us just bringing forward, I think anybody who’s hearing this or tuning in and saying, I should do that more. It’s such a common human condition. And so I have some comments that I’ll throw out there, but I would love it if this group just reacted to it, talked about our resistance, talked about examples, because there’s a few frameworks.
[00:04:22] Kristin Graham: We could talk about the biology behind it, and we’ll talk about the actual feelings that come from making these decisions. We can talk about some of the stuff. from decision fatigue all the way up through the rest of it. And then I think we should also explore some of the cognitive costs that comes from the yes and the no’s that we allow into our life.
[00:04:43] Kristin Graham: And then I’ll give you some, because I am a word nerd, I’ll make sure that we leave with some templates that we can use in our own language to make both of these words more accessible to us.
[00:04:55] Mark Wright: Wow. That’s fantastic.
[00:04:57] Kristin Graham: How’s that sound?
[00:04:58] Mark Wright: That sounds great. Alysse. [00:05:00] Hmm.
[00:05:03] Alysse Bryson: So, Kristin was a mentor to me before we became besties, and I remember several things that she coached and mentored me on in the beginning as I was moving up the, corporate ladder into senior management and leadership. And when she told me that I could say no to things, I was like, what? I can. Are you sure? But what will happen? And, I just, I didn’t believe it. And she’s like, you’re gonna, you’re going to have to learn to say no at least. Because your schedule’s gonna get too full, you’re not gonna be able to do everything. And I was like, what? And then, you know, the panic of the FOMO. But I might miss out on something.
[00:05:46] Alysse Bryson:, but she worked with me on it, and I practiced. And as it turns out, I love saying no. No is quite empowering,
[00:05:55] Alysse Bryson: and the, It’s it’s, a delicious, delicious thing, and the joy [00:06:00] of missing out is also now something. I’ve got all kinds of Jomo. So, there’s so much power in the nuggets that she’s going to throw down, I’m sure, in this episode, but I can just sit here as someone who, a decade ago, didn’t know how to say no, and was apologizing for everything.
[00:06:17] Alysse Bryson: And now when I hear people apologizing, it’s a lot of women most of the time, I’m like, you don’t need to apologize for that. Please stop apologizing. So there’s, just little things in our vocabulary can make such a world of difference in how we operate through the world.
[00:06:34] Mark Wright: Oh, that’s great. I love that background. All right, Kristin, I’m intrigued also by the brain science. You always bring the brain science into these topics., I hadn’t even considered that, so I’ll turn it back over to you now. Hmm.
[00:06:48] Kristin Graham: that is an undercurrent to this conversation is the epidemic of exhaustion and the phraseology all of us talk about with burnout and the rest of it. And so much of that comes from the [00:07:00] micro decisions we’re making. We tend to focus on what are the big yes’s and the big no’s that we need to do.
[00:07:05] Kristin Graham: It is the way that we leak our time and our energy that really becomes the multiple holes in the bottom of our boat, so to speak. But before I get into some of the facts, because you know I’m going to go there, I’m curious, Dr. James, talk to me about a recent yes or a no that you kind of wish you didn’t do.
[00:07:24] Kristin Graham: And we don’t have to name names to protect. That
[00:07:33] Dr James Bryant: recent yes or no. I would probably say it was, doing a new consulting project. Although the work was interesting, it’s not of the most interest to me. So it’s not the thing that’s most intriguing. So if I had to do it all over again, I probably would have said no.
[00:07:56] Kristin Graham: was very fair. Thank you for sharing that. We’ll probably come [00:08:00] back to that too. But I’m curious, Alysse, what would you say?
[00:08:04] Alysse Bryson: Well, I recently got asked to be on yet another board and I’m on too many boards as it is, and as much as it pained me to say no, because I actually really love the organization that approached me, it’s not fair to the other organizations I’ve already said yes to. And so I have to honor the commitments that I’ve already made before I make any new ones, even when it’s like, Oh, I really wish I could say yes, but I need to say no.
[00:08:33] Alysse Bryson: And that’s the best thing for all the organizations involved. Because I do know that when I stretch myself too thin, I’m not showing up great anywhere.
[00:08:43] Kristin Graham: I love that example because I think a lot of us can relate to the flattery and the interest and often the passion behind something. And then we struggle with the words to say, but what you just said was so beautiful. I would not be able to give you the best of my [00:09:00] ability to serve this board. Right now.
[00:09:02] Kristin Graham: And it’s, a graceful no. And so, and, and James, when I was thinking about what you just said too, that wasn’t a full yes. It wasn’t a full body yes, because it didn’t have all of, it might’ve had your time, but not that spark. So we’ll talk about both of those. Appreciate you sharing. What about you, Mr. Mark?
[00:09:18] Mark Wright: Mine’s kind of similar to Alysse. I’m not on a ton of boards, but, I’m on the board of a nonprofit that I absolutely love. And they came to me recently and asked if I would chair the board. And I was honored and flattered. And then I took a step back and I said, you know, give me a few days to think about it.
[00:09:34] Mark Wright: And very much like Alysse was saying, I started thinking about it. Okay, what is this time commitment? What is this emotional commitment? And it turned out that it was, more than I could, I could spare. And so I had to go back to them and say, you know, I’m flattered. I wouldn’t be able to do the job that I want to do for this organization if I said yes.
[00:09:55] Mark Wright: And, um, I may have said, I may have said yes as a younger Mark, [00:10:00] because I actually, and I’ve, I’ve spoken to, you know, broadcasting students for many, many years and, at a commencement address, at a university in Seattle. A number of years ago, I said, I actually had that in my commencement speech.
[00:10:14] Mark Wright: I said, I have a policy of always saying yes, unless there’s a really good reason I should say no, because it led to new opportunities and amazing things. And, that served me really well for a long time that I, I just said, yeah. And, and so I would MC events to raise money for nonprofits. I would, you know, do X, Y, Z.
[00:10:36] Mark Wright:, but then there came a point where. It was like, I think I’m feeling stretched and that’s, that’s where I think I’m getting smarter as I’m getting older, believe it or not.
[00:10:47] Kristin Graham: I definitely believe it. And what you just gave in your example is an excellent tactic that I bring forward as a lot of my suggestions for people. And you said, give me a few days to think about it. One of the things when we’re going to talk about our [00:11:00] physiology behind decision making is in very rare circumstances is an answer needed immediately.
[00:11:06] Kristin Graham: People want the answers immediately, but it’s usually not that urgent. And so giving yourself space, I always talk about the 24 hour cycle of making sure that every hour of you got to weigh in on this decision. And I like how you gave it a couple of days as well. That’s absolutely one of the secrets.
[00:11:26] Kristin Graham: spaces that you can allow to make sure that this is the right decision for you right now. So just having that time allowed you to see both parts of that. And it’s not something we typically think of to ask in the moment, especially if there are hierarchical components, social pressure, etc. Or our own pressure, our own FOMO, like Alysse said earlier.
[00:11:47] Kristin Graham: So it’s such an important Option to make sure that you always have on the menu. Most people are going to bring us a yes or a no, and they’re going to be trying to influence us one or the other. And it’s really important to see this as [00:12:00] multiple choice. You get to add other things in there like, let me think about it.
[00:12:03] Kristin Graham: So thank you each for making a point so I didn’t have to already. I can just underscore it. The other important thing too before we get into this is a yes or no isn’t just an hour for hour trade. So Mark, you mentioned if you were emceeing an event, that’s not just the course of the time that event runs.
[00:12:20] Kristin Graham: It’s the prep, it’s the post, it’s the planning, and we need to be thinking of the currency as though it were an investment going through a financial institution because it’s going through our energetic institution as well as our calendar. So I’m going to give you guys a few thoughts and then let’s come back in with some more examples and certainly raise your hand or just jump in as we’re doing it.
[00:12:41] Kristin Graham: I want to start with the body because, and Mark was talking about being a two year old, biologically our brain’s entire role is to keep us safe. And it does that through a few areas. If you’re ever finding yourself during the course of the day, feeling more fuzzy or more resistant, that is your [00:13:00] brain saying, whoa, whoa, it’s applying the brakes.
[00:13:03] Kristin Graham: to all of that information that’s coming at it. And because its job is to keep us safe, one of the easiest ways to keep us safe is to avoid risk. So NO tends to be one of the most neurological answers because it is something new. So if you find yourself thinking, why am I always thinking no, or I just don’t want to, that’s just your brain showing up for work that day.
[00:13:28] Kristin Graham: And even just being like, should I stop for lunch now? Oh, I don’t know. I don’t want to make a decision. It’s psychologically called decision fatigue. Over the course of the day, we’re making hundreds and thousands of decisions. And if you’ve ever found yourself at different points of the day waning or more heavily influenced, that’s exactly why having some time to process a request is so important.
[00:13:50] Kristin Graham: Because psychologically, we’re going to be more influenceable later in the day, and other people count on that as well. It’s kind of like when you’re in the [00:14:00] middle of something and it’s like, hey, do you have a quick minute? And they just kind of launch in. Almost before you could, stop, they’re already in it.
[00:14:06] Kristin Graham: And we’re going to talk about that too, the uninvited guests to our day and to our brain, but it’s a really important thing to know. And I’m going to pause here in a second that your brain’s first reaction will likely be no, especially in our busy digital world where we might have a desire, but not necessarily the passion or the energy behind it.
[00:14:28] Kristin Graham: And I talked earlier about burnout and exhaustion. And Mark also talked about being open to yeses. One of the things to consider with that space is, am I resisting something that might be a positive because I’m tired in the moment? And I see that show up for people in terms of, that sounds like a great opportunity, but I don’t, I can’t update my resume.
[00:14:50] Kristin Graham: Or yes, I’d like to go out with somebody new, but I just don’t feel like I can be on right now. Or that sounds like a fun event, but I just, I don’t, I, [00:15:00] I don’t even think I’m going to say no for four days from now. That’s actually normal. And let that be part of your consideration, without it being your ready stop. I’m going to pause there and see if that resonates with any of you. Do you feel like you’re more of a quick no person? Inside your brain. We haven’t even gotten to other people yet.
[00:15:17] Alysse Bryson: I am not a quick no, definitely
[00:15:19] Kristin Graham: not a
[00:15:20] Dr James Bryant: I am. My fir, in most cases, my first response is no. Whether it’s good or bad, my wife will ask me something and, you know, I’ll, say, wait, give me some time to think about it because my first response is going to be no. Uh huh.
[00:15:41] Kristin Graham: that you let your wife know that for a lot of reasons, but I think that that biological explanation is helpful, right? I think almost, and I’m an extrovert, but almost always when I get a social invitation, I’m like, no, no, that just sounds like, and then I usually go and have a good time, but that’s just a preservation component.
[00:15:58] Kristin Graham: That’s. That’s innate to all of us. [00:16:00] So I just wanted to put that out there. So the other, so that’s biologically what’s happening, but then there’s also this decision algorithm that’s constantly running in our head of the, if this, then that, if I say this, then over here, and it’s just this quick constant Rolodex in the back of our brain. But what’s really interesting is. Figuring out where we have been conditioned and Alicia said a minute ago. She’s more of a quick Yes, at least you have a sense of why you’re more of a quick. Yes, you mentioned FOMO earlier But why do you think that’s a quicker thing for you than a no?
[00:16:31] Alysse Bryson: Well, according to my Colby score, I’m a quick start, but I’m also a high fact finder. So, Dan Rogers has explained to me that sometimes that can mean it’s like I’ve got my foot on the pedal and the brake at the same time and I can get stuck. But more often than not, I think my quick startness is a lot stronger.
[00:16:52] Alysse Bryson: And because I just have this zest for yes, let’s go. I’ll, I’ll try anything once. Uh, if it’s bad for me, I’ll probably try it a few [00:17:00] times. So, yeah, I, I do just kind of have this knee jerk reaction to say yes to everything, without really thinking through the consequences or, or what it will cost me financially, emotionally, physically, mentally, et cetera.
[00:17:16] Mark Wright: Alysse, I’ve worked with you for a number of years and I think part of why you say a quick yes is that your personality is that you, you really love helping people and you’re really good at helping people and you’re really quick at helping people. And I think just as part of your personality trait, you’re just a helpful person.
[00:17:34] Mark Wright: So I think that plays into why you say yes a lot. And, I’ve benefited from the times that you’ve said yes.
[00:17:40] Alysse Bryson: Well, you know what’s interesting, Mark, when I think about where does that yes come from, I can close my eyes and I can just think of any situation growing up where my mom got a phone call that somebody needed something somewhere, or maybe there was, a fire truck that went by and it sounded like it was close.
[00:17:58] Alysse Bryson: It didn’t matter what it [00:18:00] was, she was like, she would grab her keys and be like, let’s go. Let’s go figure out what this is, or let’s go see if we can help. And so I really think that it was instilled in me from her and her willingness to always want to be of service. She never wants to be served. She always wants to be the one serving.
[00:18:17] Mark Wright: this is the woman who’s, you know, put hundreds of quilts together to give away to the community. That’s just kind of in her DNA, right?
[00:18:25] Alysse Bryson: Yeah.
[00:18:26] Kristin Graham: Well, okay, let’s stay on that. Is it in her actual DNA or is it in the reciprocity exchange that has somehow become the currency? Because when we say that, and I love being able to pick up on these conversations, because we can, oh, that’s just, oh, at least it’s just a giver. But what I also heard Alysse say is that her mother isn’t good at receiving.
[00:18:48] Kristin Graham: So my value equals signs giving. And if we’re going to talk about investments in currency and exchanges, we need to also challenge ourselves to say, what are we willing [00:19:00] to ask for from others? And it’s a really interesting exchange when you find where you are resistant to receiving. And usually it’s on the extremes of yeses and nos.
[00:19:12] Kristin Graham: There’s a drive. Most of us are going to fall in the middle 50 50 at different times because of circumstances, et cetera. It’s when we find ourselves overextending on either side, that there’s something to using the model to come back and say, what’s really happening here? What is it that I want and what do I want to get out of it?
[00:19:31] Kristin Graham: So you both gave kind of colloquial examples that are innate to a lot of us.
[00:19:35] Dr James Bryant: And see, for me, I almost have the opposite reaction or response to my situation growing up. My parents were very giving, right? They were very, always willing to help other people out, other families out, but it was at the detriment of their own wellbeing at times. I got to see the downside of overextending.[00:20:00]
[00:20:00] Dr James Bryant: And overgiving. So for me, it’s a no, because one, I’m protecting my wellbeing in my family’s wellbeing. And that’s just how I’ve responded to the circumstances that I saw growing up. Yeah.
[00:20:22] Kristin Graham: element of what if there’s not enough. And so those factors that we all witnessed or experienced have really contributed to those micro decisions I said earlier. And really being able to understand our drivers for each will help make better decisions.
[00:20:38] Kristin Graham: the articulation of our true desires more ready instead of, ah, I just, I don’t know. So let’s talk about each yes and no from especially using the examples that we did here. And I’m going to go back to at least a little bit about what you said or what Mark said about you. Is the yes, when you feel that almost like an automatic before your brain has fully [00:21:00] processed Is the yes coming from an excitement?
[00:21:03] Kristin Graham: Or is it coming from an ego? And I say this with a lowercase e, that, oh, I feel important. I’m so flattered that they ask. Or is the ego from the obligation? Okay, well, they did that last time, or this is my role, I probably should, I should make an appearance. Pay attention to the closed captions running in your head in terms of why that yes starts pushing forward.
[00:21:29] Kristin Graham: Or I’m going to owe somebody if I don’t. I have a person I work with and he’s constantly saying, I just want to get the credit. I want to get the store credits. The challenge is he never redeems that store credit. He’s always doing the marks on the mental whiteboard that nobody else can see. And so it’s part of understanding our intrinsic motivation to it.
[00:21:52] Kristin Graham: Whereas a no, a real no feels solid to you. It kind of hits you. And the first thing is like, Oh [00:22:00] no, I, maybe that’s just my first inclination, but a real no feels like, Hmm, you feel it inside. Like that is not what I want to do. I do not want to fly to Detroit in February for that conference. It just not,
[00:22:14] Mark Wright: But it’s so beautiful that time
[00:22:15] Kristin Graham: It’s so lovely on the tarmac. And so that’s one of the components to you. You feel it physically at the same time that your brain clicks into it. But then the no’s also have their own., what is the pressure? behind something? Is it, an expectation or pressure versus an interest in doing something?
[00:22:35] Kristin Graham: And no, as I already said, it’s, often the initial response to an overwhelmed brain. So in order to draw back almost from what James was saying and say, let me evaluate if this is something that we have mutual benefit is going to take a little bit more time to process that. And If you’re feeling that there’s a could or a should before either yes or no, that is something that’s from our either previous or [00:23:00] immediate near term social conditioning.
[00:23:02] Kristin Graham: What was previously rewarded or reprimanded? That is influencing your answer right now. And that becomes, it’s certainly who’s asking, but it’s also what is being asked, letting that sink in.
[00:23:14] Mark Wright: Wow.
[00:23:15] Kristin Graham: And the third thing I’ll say, and then I want us to talk a little bit more, is the other answer, which is MAYBE. Some people are kind of chronic maybes, you know, that indecisive, or I don’t know, I don’t want to offend anybody, or I really don’t know what I want.
[00:23:29] Kristin Graham: That’s usually when they need that time to process, but a maybe is a no, that just wants to be polite.
[00:23:35] Mark Wright: I’m having flashbacks,
[00:23:40] Mark Wright: Kristin . Oh my gosh.
[00:23:43] Dr James Bryant: Yep.
[00:23:43] Mark Wright: I was a kid and I would go to my mom and say, mom, can I go over to so and so’s house? And she said, we’ll see, we’ll
[00:23:49] Dr James Bryant: see.
[00:23:49] Kristin Graham: We’ll see
[00:23:50] Mark Wright: And then I always knew that we’ll see always meant no.
[00:23:53] Dr James Bryant: Yeah.
[00:23:54] Kristin Graham: mom, I can confirm that is true.
[00:23:56] Mark Wright: We’ll see.
[00:23:57] Kristin Graham: All moms out there. And I’m not saying [00:24:00] that maybes don’t turn into yeses. Maybes can be in those previous circumstances where I said, I think I would want to, but I, I’m not feeling the energy or the burnout. I would want to apply for that job. I just, maybe, maybe not now, but when you find yourself having a lot of maybes.
[00:24:17] Kristin Graham: Neurologically, it’s probably just your nose trying to come up with a way to be socially accepted. The problem with that is that we use MAYBE to avoid conflict. Of course we do. We’re human. And so we’re using that MAYBE to detract, to deflect, or to dodge. And so it is much kinder to you and to the other person to get the yes or the no.
[00:24:41] Kristin Graham: So that things can then move on. Those maybes carry a mental weight of undecided. Indecision is a decision. You might as well go ahead and claim it. Okay. What felt off to you all there? I saw a lot of faces. Tell me about your experience with maybes.
[00:24:57] Dr James Bryant: I wouldn’t say anything felt off. I [00:25:00] think it. Just confirmed a lot of my experience. The maybe really is a no. I may not be trying to, I don’t know if I’m trying to be polite. But you know, no is you, well, you know what, maybe I am cause no is usually my first reaction. So a maybe is, okay, I’m always saying no. Let me see here. Maybe let me think about it. You know, let me think about it. And most of the time say it’s still a no, but that let me think about it gives me the space to, for that, that maybe to turn into a yes.
[00:25:35] Kristin Graham: And how many times do we use that as a duck to just say, let’s see if they actually ask me again, because if Alysse asked me to go running tomorrow at 7am, because we’re friends, I’d be like, well, maybe, I’d have a full body no, but
[00:25:48] Dr James Bryant: A full body. No.
[00:25:50] Kristin Graham: a full body no. but yeah,
[00:25:52] Mark Wright: Kristin, what I think is interesting is that this is the first time in my life I have ever examined Why I [00:26:00] say yes or no, that’s so weird. I mean, this it’s bizarre that I’ve lived this long and I haven’t had this discussion with myself and caused sort of a twinge in me is that I realized that for so many years when I said yes, My motivation was so that I didn’t let someone else down
[00:26:21] Alysse Bryson: Uh huh. Uh
[00:26:22] Mark Wright: wanted to please the other person.
[00:26:25] Kristin Graham: course,
[00:26:25] Mark Wright: And that was how I was raised that you, are supposed to be agreeable, helpful., say yes, and wow, that’s, I can feel it in the middle of my stomach.
[00:26:39] Kristin Graham: You can, yeah, we said earlier, yes and no is a full body sport. And Mark, you have had this conversation with yourself a thousand times. over and over because we get our validation from the social cues around us. We all have that relative, friend, or co worker who asks far more than they [00:27:00] give. And there is the whole social dynamics at play too.
[00:27:04] Kristin Graham: And what you just said, that’s how I was raised. We all shared that in a component as well, but it’s also the non subtle pressures too. Good girls don’t say no. I mean, I can’t, think at least how many times in growing up, it was just kind of like, who does she think she is? If there’s any type of pushback and that, that crosses.
[00:27:22] Kristin Graham: across a lot of different norms, but there’s a lot behind there. There’s a lot of courage behind, OUT LOUD KNOWS. And it’s going to take some of that courage to be disliked, which is another fantastic book right now. But the problem with always saying yes, is it doesn’t actually make you liked. It just makes you repeatable. You become the source. And just like the person I mentioned earlier, if you’re never redeeming the store credit and you’re only tracking all of it in your head, it also feeds into you psychologically. If you find yourself saying yes a lot and not asking for a lot back, it’s also a [00:28:00] way that we allow ourselves to have resentments because we feel that they’re validated. Maybe we don’t speak them, but we can go around and be like, I’m a much better parent than that person. They haven’t even showed up to this, and this. And if you find yourself running tallies, it’s because you have a deficit in your own self confidence, not because of what they’re asking and you’re giving for free.
[00:28:22] Alysse Bryson: Uh huh. There it is.
[00:28:24] Kristin Graham: Yeah, that just got real. I’m already feeling that inside right now.
[00:28:27] Alysse Bryson: Mark, I have a question for Mark. Do you think, you know, for so many decades of your career, A lot of decisions were made for you. Where to stand, what to say, what to wear, right? So, you know, because so many of those decisions that some of us wouldn’t even think about was just your everyday normal, do you think that that caused you to say yes to more things just because you finally got a way in on a decision?
[00:28:57] Mark Wright: That’s really interesting, Alysse. I think, [00:29:00] yeah, broadcasting is one of those team sports. And if, if you’re a jerk, it’s a really small industry. You bend over backward to get along with everyone., you say yes to almost everything management asks of you. And yeah, that climate is just, if you say no, they’re going to find somebody who will say yes.
[00:29:19] Mark Wright: And I think there’s almost a climate of fear that, that instills that in you and I, I’d love to explore, you know, more with Kristin about, you know, when there’s a power dynamic, I remember being, Up on the farm on a weekend, and I got a call from the station, one of the stations I worked for in Seattle, I won’t name which one, they said, we need you to come back in to anchor the news tonight.
[00:29:42] Mark Wright: And I said, are you, is anybody available? And they said, well, yeah, we have one anchor who can do it. And I said, well, how come they can’t just. You know, do a solo anchor show and, long story short, I just, I said, you know, I’m sorry, but I’m, I’m not going to drive, you know, an hour and a half to come in and co anchor a half hour show where [00:30:00] someone else could do it.
[00:30:01] Mark Wright: And that was a really kind of scary moment in my career because I had just arrived in Seattle. And, if you say no too many times, management will un renew you., so there’s that. I mean, when there’s a power dynamic and when, when the, there are stakes. know, on the table., it’s a very different dynamic.
[00:30:20] Mark Wright: And we did a whole show on courage in the workplace. And I think James, you were part of that.
[00:30:24] Dr James Bryant: yeah. So, so Mark, here’s the, is if you say no too many times we’ll manage not renew you or is that just a perception of what no stands for?
[00:30:35] Mark Wright: Yeah. I guess it depends on why you’re saying no and what you’re saying no to. I mean, if it’s, if it’s reasonable, I think that’s one thing, but if you’re just saying no all the time, it’s
[00:30:46] Dr James Bryant: Yeah, I get the if you’re flippantly saying no all the time, but we have this perception that if we say no, it’s going to lead to. These negative consequences. And that’s not always the case. It was very similar. I have a very similar [00:31:00] story to Mark., I was up for a promotion. I was working in Washington, DC.
[00:31:04] Dr James Bryant: I live in Richmond, Virginia. And they essentially were like, Hey, we’ll give you the promotion, but you have to be here every day. And I was like, no, I’m not coming to DC every day. I like, you know, what I’m doing in the situation that we have worked out. I’m happy. You can have the promotion. That’s fine. I’m happy doing exactly what I’m doing.
[00:31:24] Dr James Bryant: And I remember them challenging me and saying, Hey, I thought you had ambition. I thought you had this, and I thought you had all of these other things. And my response was, I still do. But right now what’s important to me is spending time with my family. And so I built a moat around what was important to me.
[00:31:41] Dr James Bryant: That was the boundary. And that made it really easy for me to say no, because I had something that I was saying yes to. And then three months later, I got the promotion. I didn’t have to go up there every day, but, I was okay with saying no. I felt free to say no.
[00:31:57] Kristin Graham: I want to hone in on a couple things that was said here because, [00:32:00] James, that’s such an important example. And Mark, back to your point about power. There’s a difference between power and unregulated power. So, there’s hierarchy and there’s expectations and there’s all of that. And there are boundaries. And the people who extend their power too much can do it with the people who won’t hold boundaries.
[00:32:22] Kristin Graham: So no is not just an answer sometimes it is a boundary James like the example that you gave and it’s a very Important litmus because if the only success comes from giving it all away What is actually being won and I’ll give you an example of that when I first moved out to Seattle I was working in big.
[00:32:41] Kristin Graham: com and there was a It was a holding company. So lots and lots of different dot coms all in this one. And I walked into the office of a, of an executive who had just been promoted to another big role. And I think I caught him right at the wrong time. Cause I came in and said, Hey, congratulations. You’re now [00:33:00] president of blah, blah.
[00:33:01] Kristin Graham: com. And he just sank in his chair and he said, thanks. And in one of those moments I was like, is it not a good thing? And he said, the problem is around here, it’s a cake eating contest. And the prize when you win is more cake. he leaned back and he said, I’m sick of the effing cake.
[00:33:20] Dr James Bryant: Yeah.
[00:33:21] Kristin Graham: So that stuck with me very early in a career that was absolutely, could have been yes, yes, yes, all the way into the ground.
[00:33:29] Kristin Graham: And I’ve always remembered to go back and think, how much more cake am I really trying to win? And those boundaries actually also related to that. A couple of years later, I was running a recruiting organization for the same company and I was watching, and I didn’t have a background in recruiting, but I certainly knew people.
[00:33:47] Kristin Graham: And I was watching all the people come in and negotiate, which is all about yes and no. But more than that, I was watching the people who didn’t negotiate. And I think we can make some guesses along the lines of people who are [00:34:00] comfortable negotiating and those who aren’t for a lot of different sociological reasons.
[00:34:05] Kristin Graham: But there was one person I was hiring for my team and we were getting ready to close. And I said, I have one other question for you before you accept this offer. How come you didn’t negotiate? And she said, well, cause I wanted the job. And I said, but if I’m hiring you to do a job where you’re going to advocate for everything, you’re not going to take no for an answer.
[00:34:25] Kristin Graham: Why are you taking no for an answer right now on your very best product? And it had never occurred to that person to advocate for themselves because they wanted to be selfless. And this was a person coming from a major network who had all the positioning power. But we give things away because we think we can tell the future.
[00:34:45] Kristin Graham: BEATS WORKING. And when we’re saying the yeses in the moment, because we might get non renewed, we actually can’t tell the future, but we give away ours.
[00:34:54] Mark Wright: think companies take advantage of the fear that we have in our heads, you know, and as, [00:35:00] as you were talking, James, it, made me realize that sometimes that fear that is motivating us is a lot louder and more amplified in our own heads than maybe reality, would say it should be., and we respond to it that way that, Oh, if I say no, there could be some catastrophic consequences when maybe that maybe there, there wouldn’t be.
[00:35:20] Dr James Bryant: I mean, it goes, it goes back to where Kristin started us off. Is that our brains roll. Is to keep us safe. So when you start thinking about, Oh, if you say, no, that’s not safe because now we’re going to think of it and amplify what those emotions and feelings are of unsafeness. So then you go, okay, well, I’ll think about that.
[00:35:42] Kristin Graham: And that it’s so important to see all of these competing elements in our head, all while we’re just trying to figure out some of the basic, like I said, micro decisions, much less the bigger ones. So now that we’ve all admired the problem of this, let’s talk about some of the language around helping [00:36:00] ourselves have that space.
[00:36:01] Kristin Graham: And the concept I want to put forward is a simple NO. Now that’s oxymoronic because most NO’s and YES’s aren’t always simple. But I want to give you something that you can remember that’s going to feel comfortable how you personify it. And it’s four words. And then we’ll dig in a little bit more. But the four words to a simple NO is THANK YOU and NO. The reason those go together Is the THANK YOU does the social acknowledgement. It is the I HEAR YOU, I APPRECIATE THE ASK. It’s that quick acknowledgement, so we don’t seem like jerks, like Mark said earlier. The AND follows, because it’s not a BUT. A BUT is an invitation to try to DEBATE. My answer. That’s going to be a hard one because we are wanting to qualify things.
[00:36:53] Kristin Graham: We want to soften things, especially when it’s a non desirable answer. So the AND makes it subtly [00:37:00] stronger, and that’s very important to you and to them as well. So thank you, acknowledge, and doesn’t allow a comma. And the quicker the no, the easier it will be for the other people to accept. It’s when, as Alysse said earlier, we start over explaining, or apologizing for it, or quantifying it.
[00:37:21] Kristin Graham: That what we’re really doing is giving a lot of rope for people just to come back and tie us up. Oh, I’m just really sorry right now, that day’s not going to work for me because I have so many things going on. Oh, well then we’ll just change the day, so you can come and work for free all Saturday. So, if we’re just saying I’m not able to do it that day.
[00:37:39] Kristin Graham: Thank you for asking. The sooner we put the period at the end of the sentence, the sooner we can step out of the jump rope back and forth. Thank you and no. You’re gonna want to keep explaining after that. But as in a lot of journalism, they teach you let there be a long pause because the other person will step forward in their discomfort [00:38:00] instead of us trying to tap dance around ours.
[00:38:03] Kristin Graham: Thank you and no. It seems way too simple., I can sense all of you right now being like, but then, and then my mother in law, what? Yeah, it’s exactly in those situations. We need to use this more and more. And
[00:38:20] Dr James Bryant: making sure that I say it as, Nicely as possible and doesn’t and it doesn’t come off very sarcastic. Thank you. And no Thank you and no
[00:38:35] Kristin Graham: this is why I say, that’s the formula. That’s the simplicity of it. Of course, it’s gotta be in your voice. The challenge is our voice isn’t always to be trusted
[00:38:44] Dr James Bryant: Yeah, no, no, I it’s just it’s just it’s just funny, to think about it that way but I think in terms of simplicity it gives Something very concrete to hold on to because very simple. Thank you. And no,
[00:38:59] Kristin Graham: I’ll [00:39:00] extend it a little bit for everybody else’s comfort too, James. So we could say, thank you for the offer and I’m not able to participate. Thank you for the offer. I won’t be able to attend. I even took out the and there. And it doesn’t, then nothing else follows that. So we can make it a little longer.
[00:39:15] Kristin Graham: I say the four words because that helps us in the moment of like, how do I say this?, you can say the niceties in the beginning. It’s most important that we finish the no as quickly as possible without being blunt. Or like that Saturday Night Live skit. Buh bye. Buh bye. Buh
[00:39:30] Dr James Bryant: bye bye.
[00:39:30] Alysse Bryson: and I, I think in the past I’ve been, like if I were to put it in my own words, I would be like, Oh, thank you so much. I wish I could. That’s a lie. I don’t wish I could. So I have to stop lying, basically. Because when you say I wish I could, then you’re leaving the door open. But when you come in with a no or I’m not available, it closes the door, but you leave that door open and most people will push through it.
[00:39:59] Alysse Bryson: I know I will. [00:40:00] If somebody leaves the door open for me, I’m, you
[00:40:03] Kristin Graham: Absolutely. I mean, the creativity for people to get what they want is there. And having that clarity is kindness, as I said earlier, for you, but also for them. So they can move on to the next person to get to drive an hour and a half in that day. But clarity is kindness and nothing else is a substitute other than punctuation. Now you can come back at other times because I can hear everybody right now, their brains just like crinkling over this and say, if something changes, I’ll let you know if you just feel that desire to say something else, but that’s different than if I change my mind, because now you’ve just invited them to arm wrestle with you mentally.
[00:40:44] Kristin Graham: So it’s not, I’m changing my mind. It’s, I’ll let you know if something changes, if there’s a lot of people who keep pushing. And I’ve also heard from a lot of people who’ve been able to say right now, I am just not taking on any further commitments. Fine. That feels larger than I’m just saying no to you.
[00:40:59] Kristin Graham: For the [00:41:00] month of August, I’m not doing any additional social activities. Sounds like a good time. Have fun. Like you can absolutely finish the conversation. You don’t have to be the awkward person that just has silence for five minutes, but it’s most important that the first thing that can be heard is thank you.
[00:41:17] Kristin Graham: And no, or conversely, yes. If that’s the appropriate answer, but the thing here that as everybody’s adjusting to this, it’s like really hurting their brain is that yes and no are both a complete sentence. We don’t owe people our calendar, our psychological states, or anything else. If they’re coming in and asking us for something, the only thing we owe them is certainty.
[00:41:43] Kristin Graham: That’s the yes or the no. And I heard Elizabeth Gilbert, she’s an author, she was talking to Tim Ferriss on his podcast and she was talking about all the ways that we get bombarded with requests. And I love this analogy, so I’ll use it here because I’m sure a lot of you get [00:42:00] emails and invites and calendar invites, right?
[00:42:03] Kristin Graham: Or texts or all the other slack, everything. And it’s just sometimes in our desire to get rid of those red bubbles and all the messages, we’ll accept the invite and deal with it later. I just want to get it out of here instead of taking those few minutes to make the decision then. But one of the things she said is somebody’s coming into you, let’s say your personal inbox, your phone, your text.
[00:42:25] Kristin Graham: I love it when people text you when it’s like, just because this is urgent to you doesn’t mean I’m answering my text right now. I’m not a good texter on purpose. And so, but people will use the modality for how they ask as a way to pressure you too. And I want you to pay attention to that. So if this is an invite or request, that you did not ask for, that you were not expecting.
[00:42:49] Kristin Graham: It’s the same as if you walked downstairs or into your kitchen in the morning, and you found people in your kitchen eating breakfast waiting to ask you for something. You didn’t invite them in. It’s [00:43:00] your house. You’re not going to go over there and start making them coffee. Right? Oh, thank you for coming in uninvited.
[00:43:07] Kristin Graham: What else can I get you? But that’s what we do with our time. And so if somebody has come into your phone, or your inbox, or your physical space uninvited, you don’t owe them an immediate answer just because they made themselves. You can actually just not respond. Oh my god, I’m just letting that sit. can just not respond. If you didn’t invite them into your house, don’t open the door. Now, that’s not always going to be the case. But don’t feel obligated to give every, and anybody who’s been on a dating site can certainly, just because you get a message doesn’t mean you don’t need to respond. It’s the same for all the rest of this too.
[00:43:53] Kristin Graham: Not everything deserves even your attention and energy of a response. Especially if they walked into your house. [00:44:00] Think of it that way too. You don’t owe courtesy to those who don’t give it to you.
[00:44:05] Mark Wright: Chris and I have a question, and I feel like this is turning into a therapy session. Good one. No, the hardest thing that I deal with in my life is when people invite me and my wife to dinner. And they’re not in like my close circle of friends, but they extend the invitation. I really struggle with that because if you say no, they’re like, well, how about another time or whatever?
[00:44:29] Mark Wright: And it’s, I would love some advice on how to handle those situations because you’re really saying, no, I don’t want to spend time with you
[00:44:38] Kristin Graham: Yeah.
[00:44:38] Dr James Bryant: Ever.
[00:44:39] Mark Wright: Yeah, yeah, ever,
[00:44:41] Dr James Bryant: That’s
[00:44:41] Mark Wright: but, I mean, I enjoy
[00:44:43] Dr James Bryant: up on what Mark is saying. He’s like, he’s like, no, I don’t want to go to dinner with
[00:44:47] Mark Wright: but it is so hard for me. I, it kills me when I get those, those invitations.
[00:44:54] Kristin Graham: Well, and so let me, I’m going to come back to this. At least you get asked to social things [00:45:00] all the time.
[00:45:01] Alysse Bryson: Mm-Hmm,
[00:45:02] Kristin Graham: Is there a ready thing that you do with that as well? It’s kind of the queen of
[00:45:07] Alysse Bryson: uh, my, I have a, one of my responses is, ugh, my dance cart is so full right now. I’m, I try to say something light about it. Without saying I wish I could, I mean, unless I do really wish I could, there are situations where I really wish I could, . but yeah, the dance card being full, and oh, my calendar is not my own.
[00:45:28] Alysse Bryson:, I will usually, my knee jerk reaction is to make some kind of a joke or something like that. But I will say, you know, a woman reached out to me, I won’t name names, uh, in the last week. And she’s consistently been reaching out to me, for years. And I have, consistently not been available to go to one of her events and she reached out again and she’s getting smarter because now she’s telling me the date of the event, like six months in advance.
[00:45:58] Alysse Bryson: Right. Uh, [00:46:00] and so it’s kind of hard to be like, Oh, already busy that Tuesday night. You know what I’m saying? And so it was like, my response was, well, currently my schedule Schedule is clear on that day, but often my travel schedule is not always, you know, can change things at the last minute, but I will make a note on my calendar.
[00:46:22] Alysse Bryson: And then it turned into, and I was like, and she’s like, but I want to tell you what’s going on with the organization. Can we schedule, you know, some time? And I was like, yes, here’s my Calendly link, schedule a time. And then she fires back, let’s meet in person for coffee. And I’m like, now you’re pushing it.
[00:46:37] Alysse Bryson: Now, you’re really pushing it. Like, I gave you an inch, and you’re taking a mile, and I don’t want to meet for coffee. I don’t have time to meet for coffee. I do. I don’t want to make time to meet for coffee. Right? And so now I’m in this conundrum of, I have to, you know, I
[00:46:54] Dr James Bryant: You have to what?
[00:46:55] Alysse Bryson: I have to not be available.
[00:46:58] Alysse Bryson: I have to [00:47:00] at least respond. I don’t know. I can’t. I don’t ghost people. It’s hard though. It’s, it is hard because I do have an ego and I am a people pleaser and I always want, when my name is mentioned, I want people to be like, Oh, I love that girl, you know? And so I’m always striving for that often to my detriment.
[00:47:19] Kristin Graham: Now, before I jump in, James, I like your style. You go ahead. What were you going to, how are you going to answer them? And I’ll piggyback on you.
[00:47:26] Dr James Bryant: my question, you have to what? You have to respond and you think about what are you balancing? You want to be polite, but you want to be honest with the person and you want to be honest with yourself. And it sounds like a lot of our answers are not honest with ourselves. We will come up with something as an excuse, but it’s not real honesty in terms of where we are and what we want to do and what’s important to us.
[00:47:52] Dr James Bryant: BEATS WORKING. So that, that’s just an observation, both as I listened to Mark, as I listened to you, Alysse is like, be honest with us. And then you, did say, I don’t [00:48:00] have time. I don’t want to make the time. Okay. Well, how can you politely convey that to this person?
[00:48:05] Kristin Graham: And, but I’m really feeling too, Mark, what you were saying about just, I mean, it’s awkward, it is awkward, especially when there’s social invites and feeling like you’re saying, I don’t like you, right? That’s not what you’re saying, but it’s like, I choose not to spend that time. And so I think it’s coming up with something that’s going to feel comfortable In your language, but that is consistent and being like on a personal level, we have limited activities because of our family, principles or our family goals.
[00:48:34] Kristin Graham: So we’re not able to make social plans at this time, but so flattered that you ask.
[00:48:40] Dr James Bryant: Yeah.
[00:48:41] Kristin Graham: Now that’s not an end all be all for everything, but it is okay to pull back and say, we have limited social opportunities because of our family goals right now, or our family elements. And. I’m going to have to go more into that and at least, with that person.
[00:48:56] Kristin Graham: And, I relate to a lot of that to say there’s so [00:49:00] many, causes and events that are worthwhile. I just have a limited capacity for which ones I support, and I’m not able to take this one on. I appreciate you understanding. There’s also psychology. to saying, I appreciate you understanding, whether they do or don’t. Because it’s also saying, I am finishing this conversation, but in a polite way.
[00:49:21] Dr James Bryant: Yeah.
[00:49:22] Kristin Graham: Because if they continue to push, then they’re not understanding.
[00:49:25] Alysse Bryson: I do want to go on the record that I am very, very good at saying no on dating apps. I just, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oops. Yeah. No, no. So I just want to go on the record. I am thriving there. I am still very single, but I am definitely managing my boundaries very well on the dating app. No, I am not.
[00:49:51] Kristin Graham: And I think that that’s it. But sometimes we need those elements in our life where we can get really practiced at something. So that we can bring it into, the awkward and the more [00:50:00] personal. And so Mark, I think for you to come up with the language that still feels on brand for you, but doesn’t feel like a squishy, maybe is going to be important.
[00:50:12] Kristin Graham: And it is a compliment, like Alysse said, that people, when they think of you, they want to be social and being able to say. That sounds like a lot of fun. It’s just not something that I’m able to do socially right now. And it still acknowledges the ask without saying that you’re moving into a concentric circle closer to that.
[00:50:35] Dr James Bryant: There are two comments that I have, based on that, that Mark and part of it is, what are you saying yes to? What is it that you want to say yes to that where now this person, these folks, they want to get together. Clearly you’re saying, no, I don’t want to, I don’t want to invest this time here. Where do you want to invest your time?
[00:50:55] Mark Wright: Yeah, at home with other people that I choose to spend time with. [00:51:00] I’m sort of coming up with something as, we’re talk, you know, talking about this, that, some, something that I’ve said in the past is, my wife and I are just getting spread a little too thin right now, and we just, we’re trying to prioritize our, our time at home.
[00:51:13] Mark Wright: Thanks though, for the, for the invitation.
[00:51:15] Kristin Graham: That’s
[00:51:15] Mark Wright: Something like that, just, because, and it just makes me think that in our society, Small lies are actually acceptable and absolute honesty is considered rude in, in a lot of things. And, hey, does it, do these pants look good on me? Somebody’s.
[00:51:33] Kristin Graham: a word nerd. Yes. No, I, I think it’s, the social cohesion, right?, the subtle edges. We don’t have to wrap a pillow around the no, but we could soften the edges a bit. I think, especially cause that makes us feel better about saying it. It’s those sharp edges that push us into the corners that we don’t always want to be. On that though, I want to make sure to say one more thing as we start to wrap up. It’s that if you’re ever in a situation or multiple situations where you’re feeling the need to [00:52:00] over explain your answer, either because of your relationship with the person or they’re just not hearing it, take a closer look at what is being asked of you and who is doing the asking instead of re evaluating whether you should change your answer. We start to make it about us. And over explaining and apologizing like Alysse said, when really we should be exploring what is instigating that reaction from us. And it typically has come from a boundary that only we know, or one that is the only people who have problems with boundaries are those who benefit from you not having any.
[00:52:38] Kristin Graham: So nos. It’s okay if people do get mad at some of your answers. Because it doesn’t serve them.
[00:52:47] Mark Wright: Yeah.
[00:52:48] Dr James Bryant: Yeah. The answers are to them, but their answers are not for them. The answer is for you.
[00:52:54] Kristin Graham: Beautifully said, James. Thank you. Thank you all for coming on this ride. I wish you a lot of [00:53:00] luck with your yeses and noes. And with anything, it’s practice. Find the shortcuts to get you there. And it’s going to be awkward. There’s no way to step over the awkward. But a few minutes of awkward can get you back a lot of time and energy.
[00:53:14] Kristin Graham: And especially when you immediately feel relief. With the answer you want, that’s the validation you need.
[00:53:20] Mark Wright: I have to just throw one thing in, Kristin . This has been so much fun, as always. But when you said decision fatigue, almost nightly, my wife works in the school district and she just went back to work yesterday for the new school year. And when she got home, I said, well, what should we do for dinner? And she just looked at me, she said, Oh my goodness, she said, that’s the last thing I want to think about right now and it’s like Every day at our house, there’s decision fatigue at 4 30 p.
[00:53:49] Mark Wright: m
[00:53:49] Kristin Graham: yeah, brother. You need to ask her like at 10 a. m. Yes. I have a standing rule in my house. Like anything that’s asked of me after 9 p. m. is an automatic no. Just [00:54:00] no. Yeah. But that’s really important that you acknowledge that. I would
[00:54:06] Mark Wright: you guys have anything you want to Toss out before we wrap?
[00:54:10] Alysse Bryson: No. No. No.
[00:54:18] Dr James Bryant: For me, we haven’t explicitly talked about this, but I think it’s important to bring up. A lot of people do feel pressure to say yes, and they don’t give themselves permission to say no. You don’t need permission from anybody else, but give yourself permission to say no and to protect those things that are sacred and that are important to you.
[00:54:45] Dr James Bryant: And just letting people know that that’s okay. It’s okay for you to choose you, by saying no.
[00:54:50] Kristin Graham: add to that and say, it’s okay to change your mind. If you’ve already said yes or no to something, and you’re not having that full body or [00:55:00] you just have realized it’s not what you want to do, you do get to change your mind
[00:55:04] Mark Wright: that’s fantastic. And also I’m just thinking about Kristin, the times that we do say yes, when we probably should have said no, there’s a lot of regret, there’s a lot of resentment and there’s a lot of emotional energy that gets wasted when you’re doing that thing that you really don’t want to do.
[00:55:21] Mark Wright: And, I’m just thinking what a joy it would be to get back that time, to get back that. You know, those feelings of autonomy that actually feel good when you know who you are.
[00:55:32] Kristin Graham: and where there are those social expectations. It doesn’t have to be a yes for the whole thing, being able to do partials of just. I can only say for 30 minutes. I can only talk for 10. I can, we can really also adjust the level of all or nothing. So don’t give it all away. See what is available.
[00:55:53] Mark Wright: That’s awesome. This has, been super fun as usual. Kristin, if people want to get ahold of you, how do they get ahold of you? And, how can they hear [00:56:00] your podcast?
[00:56:00] Kristin Graham: Well, don’t come into my inbox. I’m kidding.
[00:56:04] Kristin Graham: The podcast is fewer. What’s that
[00:56:07] Alysse Bryson: Don’t text her. Don’t text her.
[00:56:09] Kristin Graham: Yeah. Well, you can, I just won’t respond. No, in all seriousness, my podcast is called Fewer Things Better, and you can always find me at Kristin at unlockthebrain. com.
[00:56:20] Mark Wright: Well, this has been great as usual. I have some new tools in my toolbox because I talked with my friend, Kristin, today., thanks so much, Kristin Graham, Dr. James Bryant, Alysse Bryson, for another edition of Contributor’s Corner coming to you every month from the BEATS WORKING podcast. Thanks you all.
[00:56:37] Kristin Graham: Thanks friends.