Katie Mack is a creative powerhouse + storytelling genius. Discover how Katie harnesses the power of community, authenticity, and a clear mission to transform her creative ideas into vibrant realities that resonate with audiences everywhere.
Key Takeaways:
- Core Intent: Identify and focus on the essence of your project to create impactful experiences.
- Community Building: Assemble a team that aligns with the event’s mission for seamless execution.
- Post-Event Reflection: Planning for a post-event debrief is key to continual improvement and avoiding burnout.
Resources Mentioned:
- Podcast: f*cking sober: the first 90 days
- Meet Mack: Website
- Somehow9am Productions
- Alysse & Libby: Bios & LinkedIn
Quotes:
- “No one should care about this idea more than me.” – Katie Mack
- “The core of everything for me is actually, I think, a lot of things.” – Katie Mack
Listener Challenge:
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Connect with Us:
- Website: www.beatsworkingpodcast.com
- LinkedIn: @BEATS WORKING Show
- Instagram: @beatsworkingshow
- Facebook: @Beats Working Show
- YouTube: @BEATSWORKINGPODCAST
Support the Show:
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more listeners.
BEATS WORKING is a platform on a mission to redeem work—the word, the place, and the way. We believe that work is the most honorable act in the universe, and through inspiring stories and practical insights, we want to transform the way people think about work and help them discover greater fulfillment in their lives. We invite you to join us as we build community through sharing and actively demonstrating what we learn.
If you have a show idea, feedback, or just want to connect, email producer Tamar Medford at tamar@workp2p.com.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Elise [00:00:00]:
And I had never come across a podcast that was done in a narrative format in this specific niche community. And I was so enthralled, I immediately went on and was like, oh, they’re. They want donations. Give them money. Give them all my money. And just like, I. I set my calendar and my timer for the next day, the next week, when the next episode was going to drop. I just.
Elise [00:00:23]:
I became obsessed at the first sounds. And then.
Libby Sundgren [00:00:27]:
Mac, did you know this? Did you know she was such a hardcore fan?
Katie Mack [00:00:32]:
I now know this story. I will. I’ll piggyback on this and say, like, Elise was not shy. I don’t know if we’re surprised by this, but, like, okay, so if you’re a podcast producer, you’re able to see, like, how many people can listen. And for me, I basically made it so my ex boyfriend would listen. So anybody other than my ex boy boyfriend listening would. It would be great. I mean, that’s.
Katie Mack [00:00:55]:
That’s all. And so when Elise did that for. For me, I don’t even think I was done with the episodes. And I just sort of.
Alysse Bryson [00:01:01]:
You weren’t like, no. And I started making memes. You did memes? I made. I made Giphy stickers like you did. I fangirled hard. It was hard.
Katie Mack [00:01:13]:
It was wild.
Elise [00:01:15]:
Welcome to Beats Working Winning the Game of Events, where we share stories and strategies to turn any event or life moment into something unforgettable.
Libby Sundgren [00:01:25]:
Events are wild, and the people who work in them are some of the most resilient humans on earth. If you know, you know.
Elise [00:01:33]:
So come with us behind the curtain for a look at their most memorable experiences.
Libby Sundgren [00:01:38]:
As they say, the show must go on. So let’s get on with the show.
Elise [00:01:44]:
Foreign.
Libby Sundgren [00:01:48]:
Welcome back to Beats Working Winning the Game of Events. We have the cream of the crop on our show today, the bees knees. I mean, true.
Katie Mack [00:02:02]:
Just I need one.
Libby Sundgren [00:02:04]:
I’m trying to think of. So there’s just too many other compliments running through my head. I can’t share them all because we’d spend the whole time with me just.
Elise [00:02:10]:
I got one. I got one, Libby.
Libby Sundgren [00:02:12]:
Okay, well, let’s hear it.
Elise [00:02:12]:
Once you go, Mac, you never go back.
Katie Mack [00:02:15]:
Go back. Oh, okay.
Elise [00:02:19]:
Who’s here today? Libby. Who’s here today?
Libby Sundgren [00:02:21]:
Katie Mack. She is a nomadic independent producer, writer, and performer who chooses arts over opioids and hasn’t looked back.
Katie Mack [00:02:31]:
It’s true.
Libby Sundgren [00:02:33]:
She’s the creator and founder of sober the first 90 days, which is truly a groundbreaking narrative podcast that chronicles the first 90 days of sobriety. It’s got laughs, it’s got tears, it’s got sound effects. I mean, it really is an immersive experience. So if you haven’t listened to it, we’re linking it in the show notes the series.
Elise [00:02:55]:
Nick Cage.
Libby Sundgren [00:02:56]:
Yeah, the series actually won the 2021 Webby Award for best writing. That’s how good it is.
Elise [00:03:05]:
There it is. There’s the award.
Libby Sundgren [00:03:07]:
It really resonates because it just is so honest and the storytelling is so creative. You, you’re going to love it. Max is also the founder and director of Somehow 9am Productions, which is a company dedicated to fostering artists first works with fiscal responsibility at its core. It’s important because you want those first projects to grow into second ones. And through her work, she’s become a master at producing creative theatrical events, building mission driven teams, and bringing bold, honest stories to life. Katie Mack, thank you for being here.
Elise [00:03:40]:
Ladies and gentlemen. Katie Mack. Katie Mack. Oh, the crowd goes wild.
Libby Sundgren [00:03:44]:
Katie Mack. Katie Mack. Katie Mack. Welcome back.
Katie Mack [00:03:46]:
Katie Mack.
Elise [00:03:48]:
Welcome back. Katie Mack. Katie Mack. Katie Mack. Okay, I want to jump in right away and, and just, I want to bounce off of you talking about her pop podcast, sober the first 90 days, because that is how I found Katie Mack and made her become one of my best friends. It was early on in the pandemic, early on, I think it was like the coming up on the end of 2020, I think, and she had dropped, it was October and she had dropped a couple of episodes. And I was, was, as the founder of the Sober Curator, I curate sober content of all kinds. And I had never come across a podcast that was done in a narrative format in this specific niche community.
Elise [00:04:38]:
And I was so enthralled, I immediately went on and was like, oh, they’re, they want donations. Give them money. Give them all my money. And just like I, I set my calendar and my timer for the next day, the next week, when the next episode was going to drop. I just, I became obsessed at the first sounds and then Mac, did you know this?
Libby Sundgren [00:04:58]:
Did you know she was such a hardcore fan?
Katie Mack [00:05:03]:
I now know this story. I will, I’ll piggyback on this and say, like, Elise was not shy. I don’t know if we’re surprised by this, but like, okay, so if you’re a podcast producer, you’re able to see like, how many people can listen. And for me, I basically made it so my ex boyfriend would listen. So anybody other than my ex boyfriend listening would, it would be great. So like you could in the very beginning. Now, now we have something like 700 to 1500 listeners a week. But, like, at the.
Katie Mack [00:05:32]:
In the very beginning, like, I was blown away that, like, 60 people listened. So, like, in the very beginning, I would check to see if anyone listened, right? And I was like, oh, there are. Oh, my God, 60. 60 people listen to this. And. And in that time is when somebody named Elise Bryson, like, who is, like, sending. Sent a chunk of money, which was, like, you know, again, like, incredibly validating, and just wanted to tell me that it was great.
Elise [00:05:58]:
And then wrote.
Katie Mack [00:05:59]:
And then the biggest thing for me was that you wrote a review.
Elise [00:06:02]:
I did.
Katie Mack [00:06:03]:
And that. That, like, you know, it sort of, like, lives in perpetuity. And that, like, reflected back to me this, the goals. And, like, Elise, you are exactly the person who I hoped would hear it. So, I mean, again, like, we sort of make stuff with, like, an avatar, a particular person in mind, and I essentially made mine for past versions of myself. But that’s, you know, we. She can’t listen because she’s here. So, like, in real life, like, who.
Katie Mack [00:06:30]:
Who could listen to this and be. And relate in some way, right? It sits in this interesting space of, like, entertainment and a little bit of, like, you know, can you get something from this? Can you learn something from this? Can you just, like, expand? Because that’s what stories do. They live in this space where sort of we start. We get to look at ourselves. And the cool thing about podcasting or listening to a podcast narrative, and the intention of this was for you to sort of be the solo listener, so you’re listening by yourself to somebody, so then you can sort of reflect by yourself. So it kind of lives in that, I don’t know, like, same space. It’s like a journal, reflective. Anyway, so the fact that somebody had done this and spent all this time not just listening, not just dedicating and donating money and not just reaching out and saying that it was good, but then taking the time to tell other people that it was good or that it was.
Katie Mack [00:07:17]:
Had value was kind of the. The. It was, for me, like, one more step outside of my home that made me believe that it was real. So, like, it just. Again, there’s, like, I have all these sort of theories about witnesses and audiences and ways in which we feel seen and to feel seen. And like, one of those echelons is sort of like the stranger who can just say, like, you have my story, which we get a lot of, you know, which is. Which is. You know, I learned that from being in the rooms of aa.
Katie Mack [00:07:49]:
So, I mean, that’s, that’s all. And so when Elise did that for, for me, I don’t even think I was done with the episodes. And I just sort of like, no.
Elise [00:07:57]:
And I started making memes. You did memes? I made, I made Giphy stickers like you did. I fangirled hard. It was hard.
Katie Mack [00:08:08]:
It was wild. It was. I’ve never, I’d never had that experience. And I was a little trepidatious cuz I was just like, I don’t know this person.
Elise [00:08:16]:
Who is this crazy person.
Katie Mack [00:08:17]:
I don’t, I didn’t feel like you were crazy. I was just like, I don’t, I don’t know why you would want more like more interaction with me kind of. I guess like, I mean, sort of. You had done everything I could have asked anyone to do more than anyone, honestly. And, and then you wanted to continue to engage. So it was. And also, you know, sort of like, I know it’s sort of like a one night stand that turned into a relationship. You know what I’m saying?
Elise [00:08:41]:
It’s just like that. It’s just like that. Well, you know, we do, we do consider podcasting a different form of an event. You know, as you just mentioned, like, it might be an individual event where you’re having your own experience because you’ve got your earbuds in and your outside walking your dog while you’re listening to a story. Or you could be listening to an episode with multiple people in the room, or you could be listening to an episode with multiple of your friends listen to and then you get together, you talk about it. Like podcasting is a form of an event, which is not the only reason why we have you here. But like it’s part of it.
Katie Mack [00:09:18]:
I’ll take any excuse really to be in the space with both of you, but, but, but I, I think it goes back to sort of that and what I would call the essence of an event, which is how do you curate an experience? And when we talk about like any art form, like a lot of times again, you sort of go like in and out like you want to make for you in some way. Right. You have to have a personal connection to it. Even if it’s just like, man, I love explosions or whatever. I think it’s gonna sort of like it’s gonna come forth in the things. But then though, the how you want it to be received and delivered is something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. So when somebody offered me to make fucking sober into a one woman show, I didn’t want to do that because I had made it the way that I wanted to make it. Meaning in the.
Katie Mack [00:09:59]:
That I wanted to make it in. And so I think when it comes to creating events, creating artistic events, creating anything, like, you know, the first thing you sort of consider is the space and the place. And for me, I was like, oh, I. It’s really important to me, one, that I can make it peacefully, responsibly, but two, that the, the listener, that it’s a. It’s a listener who is able to kind of like do like, fold the laundry, go on walks with their dogs, you know, be in their car and be able to create a space accidentally or on purpose to be able to, like, essentially in the, like, cheesiest way possible, reflect on their relationship with alcohol and themselves. So that, that was very intentional. That was not a mistake.
Elise [00:10:44]:
And you did go on to do a one woman show called Ugly Cry.
Katie Mack [00:10:48]:
Yeah.
Elise [00:10:49]:
Which I flew to New York just to see.
Katie Mack [00:10:52]:
You flew from Seattle to New York. And then I recruited people. I got, I was going to say, got like an entire team of like, big wig, sober people to come to also say nice things to me. It was just incredible. Nobody said anything mean. No one said, you know, you spent all this time. I mean, it was like, it was insane. I don’t know the, the.
Katie Mack [00:11:18]:
I don’t know what I did to, to be so lucky, but I know I’m lucky. And, but it’s. I think also at this point I, I know that I’m lucky and I don’t take it for granted. I don’t take.
Elise [00:11:27]:
Well, I mean, I have excellent taste and I’m clearly very humble about that. But no, like, when I see talent and when I see somebody doing something in a way that I think is fresh and innovative, like, I just want everybody to know about it. I would love to know, as we kind of start off this conversation, like, what is the first step in your planning process? When you’re approaching any kind of project that would fall under the very large umbrella of events, whether it’s a live performance, a podcast, you’re filming, a TV series, you have your finger in a lot of different projects at any given time. So how do you get started?
Katie Mack [00:12:10]:
I mean, I think we always go back to, like, what the core of the thing is. So fucking sober. The core of it is about, like, looking and exploring within yourself about your own relationship with alcohol. So if I wanted to deduce that down, how can I do that? I could do that in multiple ways. I could write a Book, I would. I want that person to sort of take the time to be by themselves with, for example, something like Ugly Cry. The whole point was about curating space that also encouraged community, but not too much. So the idea is like, the house needed to be.
Katie Mack [00:12:40]:
The house, like a playhouse needed to be a certain size. And too big would sort of like, dilute the process. Like Broadway. Like. Like you don’t. You can’t even have ugly gray. Okay. Like, it just, like, doesn’t work for you.
Katie Mack [00:12:54]:
Too elite for you. Yeah, it’s just like. Like, it’s just like. Like the magic is lost, you know? And so, like, again, to think about, like, what the core is and who. How I can make the most impact in terms of each audience member, or, for example, we’re curating like a birthday party. It’s like, what is overwhelming for that individual, you know, like, would that individual find this particular thing exciting? You know, not fun fun, you know, any sort of time that you. You go back to the core of the thing. The idea of a birthday is to celebrate that person.
Katie Mack [00:13:23]:
So what’s the way that I can do that? And how many people does that involve? And what would be, like. What would be unexpected and also exciting and also support sort of again, the. The kernel, the nugget, the seed of where this idea comes from. And where the idea comes from is like a sneaking suspicion. It’s like a thing that kind of comes within yourself that, like, this thing is important and it hasn’t been done. And the first thing, like, obviously, like, birthdays have been done, but has the birthday been done in that way? So for me, the first thing I always do is when I come up with a brand new idea, I hope to God that somebody else has already done it, because I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to talk about. That’s so much work.
Libby Sundgren [00:14:04]:
You don’t want to invent the wheel. Are you talking about.
Katie Mack [00:14:07]:
No, I. When I made sober, because. And I waited. I waited something like five years for someone else to make sober. I.
Elise [00:14:15]:
You had the idea five years before it came out. Really?
Katie Mack [00:14:18]:
Because I have been listening to the radio almost my whole life.
Libby Sundgren [00:14:21]:
Yeah, sure, that makes sense.
Katie Mack [00:14:22]:
And then we started to listen to podcasts on our phones, and then Sober podcast came out and I would just listen to two people on an interview, even talk about how hard it was.
Libby Sundgren [00:14:34]:
Oh, God, Interviews.
Katie Mack [00:14:35]:
Like on just a nap time. Good night.
Elise [00:14:38]:
Lame. And.
Katie Mack [00:14:39]:
And for me, I’m listening to two people have a conversation, and regardless of how much they’re Talking about how poorly they’re doing or how poorly they’ve been doing. At this point, to be on an interview, you have to be doing some modicum of okay. Right. And I hated them. So I wanted to make a podcast about someone who, like, wasn’t doing well, but was doing it anyway. And I thought the only way to do that was through storytelling. And so that’s. That’s the medium in which I had always wanted to do it in some capacity.
Libby Sundgren [00:15:09]:
Can you tell us a little bit more about Ugly Cry? Sure. Because it is such a unique kind of production. I mean, you ran how many miles during each performance?
Elise [00:15:22]:
She was on this treadmill for almost the entire performance.
Libby Sundgren [00:15:26]:
I know. And talking amazing. I mean, that would be, like, the biggest. One of the biggest hurdles for me in doing a show like that. But you are a very active, avid trainer, athlete. Active person. So that might not have been your biggest hurdle. But tell us a little bit about Ugly Cry and what.
Libby Sundgren [00:15:51]:
You know, what the hardest part about that production was?
Katie Mack [00:15:55]:
Well, I’ll even connect it back to Elisa’s kind of first question of just kind of, like, how do you come up, like, with creating the space and sort of. I’ve. And I. And so something I had said is that, like, I had a sneaking suspicion about something, and that when we started to involve social media in our lives, you know, I. I’m. I’m 38 years old, and so I got Facebook my freshman year of college or maybe sophomore year of college, something like that. And I watched how our relationships changed, and I watched how in real life, what happened on the Internet was affecting the way that we had relationships in real life. And so that, like, this.
Katie Mack [00:16:38]:
This space. Oh, it’s just social media. I feel like now I feel less crazy because I used to say stuff like, oh, I can, like, dictate someone’s behavior based on how they were acting on social media or, like, how they’re, like, presenting themselves or how they’re engaging with me or interacting with me. And before, I felt like people were like, that’s so crazy. Like, I never look at who watches my stories, and I’m like, don’t lie to me. You’re lying. Like, you’re lying. Like, you.
Katie Mack [00:17:03]:
You look at who watches your stories like you do. I know you. We all do. And I thought it was a really interesting space that I thought no one was being honest about. And so to get to Ugly Cry, Ugly Cry is called hashtag uglycry. And it’s the third iteration of a sneaking suspicion that I, like To write about people and people’s events versus, like, I mean, and again, like sci fi or like, you know, ghost or horror, like that all has a space. I just like, I like writing about everyday life and how weird it is. And so I wrote.
Katie Mack [00:17:31]:
In 2018 or 2017, I wrote something called Hashtag no filter. It was a 20 minute solo show in which. Oh, and here’s the second part. There’s another sneaking suspicion, which is we were fighting with audience members to turn off their phones in the theater. And I just thought, what if we invited them to bring their phones, keep their phones on? So this, this combination of the two things. I was like, can we stop fighting about this thing? And it’s not because I believe that all theaters should have phones in it. It’s just like, what would happen. It’s an experiment and maybe I’ll go down in history as the biggest idiot ever.
Katie Mack [00:18:00]:
But like, but like, I don’t know. Let’s, like, let’s try. So I invited people to use their phones to explore a relationship. And hashtag no Filter. I hired two actors to make two fake Instagram accounts. They posted pictures with each other over the course of four months. And then I asked audience members to toggle in between their relationship to talk about how it came together and how it fell apart based on how they liked things. It was like almost like a long run on sentence where they could go back and forth in between these two fake Instagram accounts.
Katie Mack [00:18:31]:
Now, I’ll tell you that my actors ended up falling in love and dating for five years. So there’s a part of that match.
Libby Sundgren [00:18:38]:
You’re also a matchmaker addict.
Elise [00:18:40]:
Matchmaker Max.
Katie Mack [00:18:42]:
I’m just saying, like, I’m not just a casting director. Like, I will find you the love of your face. Like, I got you. Like, I build community and babies. They didn’t have any babies, so. So that led to Hashtag breakup content, which is where I live streamed my Instagram, put it on a. I put it on a projection, and I asked audiences to engage with me while I went through my Instagram and went through like the, like, I tried to be as honest as possible while I unpacked my relationship. So I sort of like talked about how important it was when my ex wanted to take a photo with me.
Katie Mack [00:19:20]:
And me putting it up on the Internet made me feel like it was bigger and realer and like more committed than it ever was and all sort of the, the likes with it and the way that it, like, made me feel like we had sort of crafted something that we maybe we hadn’t earned. And then all the ways in which I was actually posting for my ex boyfriend’s current girlfriend, like all of the ways in which being seen in this space helped me and hurt me in my real space. And then I at the time and at least, at least invited audiences to interact in the live space and also from home. So this idea that how can you curate maybe a more inclusive space for people who can’t make it to the theater and literally have them have the actual intended experience. The. They’re two separate experiences, but the experience was intended to be live streamed. So I would acknowledge the audience at home, I would acknowledge the audience in the seats and, and in the same way that you could be on the right side of the stage and left side of the stage, you’re having a different experience. But, but you’re.
Katie Mack [00:20:22]:
It’s the intended audience, it’s not being recorded afterwards. So. And then I was very validated. I had a girlfriend who basically said she saw the show and, and she was in her kitchen in Arkansas and people laughed and she wasn’t going to laugh, but she heard other people laugh in the space and it made her laugh out loud. Which is the same cathartic sort of like experience that you have when you’re sitting with an audience. And so again, it’s, it’s not the same, but it lives in this sort of like nuance. So with all of this, all of this, I sort of say like I’m sort of over explaining because all this just comes from like, I wasn’t done with this idea yet that like our phones are like, they’re, they’re really helping shape us. And I don’t, I don’t say it’s a good thing or a bad thing.
Katie Mack [00:21:06]:
Like some people like really turn up their nose like, oh my God, I can’t believe you’re asking people to bring phones into the theater. And again, it’s just sort of like what would happen if we did. It’s just, it’s just a question which led me to Ugly Cry, which, you know, I’m really interested in the inner space between, like the intersectional space between death and how we sort of end up living on, in, on social media and how we handle death and people who have passed on while we still have access to their images. And in the same way that I can fall in love with William Shakespeare by picking up his plays, somebody can go to my dead friend who the show is about Eric Anthematin’s profile and fall in love with sections of his life, because he made them at a very specific time and he wrote them beautifully and he’s super fucking cute. So. And, and now we do stuff. I said, you know, hashtag ugly cry was about the fact that, like, we’re, we’re grieving differently, right? So no filter was like, we’re dating differently. And then breakup content was like, we’re talking about relationships.
Katie Mack [00:22:07]:
And, and I sort of akin to me making my relationship public to like a marriage, because what is a marriage? But like witnesses, right? Like me leaning into this thing or this identity. And then hashtag ugly cry is about unpacking how we grieve differently or how we grieve now in this, in this time. And so each event was a time capsule that kind of can’t really be revisited because technology changes. I don’t know how well any of these things would hold up if they would still be interesting. And I also think that’s an important thing about an event. You make the thing with the resources and the tools that you have, with the knowledge that you have, and you forgive yourself when you look back at it. It was a bad idea. But that’s your time capsule for the thing.
Katie Mack [00:22:48]:
And so that’s why, like, deadlines are so important. That’s why, like, the act of the witness and like an audience saying they’re going to come at a certain time is so important. And that’s why, like, when you make an event, don’t cancel because it’s not perfect. Do the thing and learn from it. Because you only could have shown up with that much knowledge at that time. Even if you’re like, I could have done a better job, you’re like, well, yeah, but you, you, you didn’t.
Libby Sundgren [00:23:09]:
Yeah, in hindsight. Yeah.
Katie Mack [00:23:11]:
You know. Yeah. So I, I think all, all of the, like, again, like the, the sweet spot to sort of making something is coming up with, you know, going down the rabbit hole of a sneaking suspicion, which I just, I don’t know how to like, else. I mean, some people would call intuition or maybe like a curiosity. You can’t like, let leave you something that you continue to bring up that maybe no one else will bring up with you. It’s not that they’re like telling you that you’re crazy, but then they just like, won’t lean in and then having a deadline because if you, if you don’t, it’ll just pass.
Elise [00:23:43]:
So how do you know when you have fully wrapped on a project and you’re ready to close that chapter and, and then what does the space look like leading into the next chapter. That’s a loaded question.
Katie Mack [00:23:58]:
Oh no, it’s, it’s a.
Libby Sundgren [00:23:59]:
How do you say goodbye?
Katie Mack [00:24:01]:
It’s. It. Well, this is my biggest problem. I just, I just, I look at. I pretentiously think of myself as an artist and I have so many ideas of things that I want to do before I die that I cannot stay with one thing. So I’ll never make any money because I’ll never be able to stick. Stick with it long enough. And so, so really it’s, it’s the.
Katie Mack [00:24:31]:
I made the thing. I have some time under tension, right? So I lifted some weights. Like that’s how you get the muscles. And now I want to do bigger fun things. So I, I really think it’s. You have to. When you. A better answer is when you start resenting the project.
Katie Mack [00:24:47]:
It’s like the same thing with like a romantic relationship. Like when they ask you to like pass the salt and you’re like, press the goddamn salt.
Libby Sundgren [00:24:55]:
You’re like, maybe it’s time to take a break.
Katie Mack [00:24:58]:
You’re like, either a, I need to re. Fall in love with this. Which means I have to like remove the thing I’m in now. I might need to take some space and then I need to remember why this is important. But plowing forward isn’t going to get me anywhere. Or I need to exit.
Elise [00:25:14]:
Is that. Would you, would you call that like all part of like having an event hangover? Because event hangovers are very real and there’s not necessarily a certain. It’s not like you just have it for 24 hours.
Katie Mack [00:25:29]:
I have a strong theory on this. Of course. Everything that you say, like, lights me up because I love talking about this stuff. But I will say you have a responsibility as a maker to take care of your hangover or your blues. So the part of the process. This is so in the same way that some people think that like making movies is done when like you wrap camera. No, there’s a whole editing process. There’s a massive editing process that really, that’s where the movie gets made.
Katie Mack [00:25:53]:
And if you don’t involve the editor and the beginning of pre production, you are hurt, hurting yourself. So if you are going to create an event, get real with how much it might have an impact on you. And then put in. Your event is not, oh, you’re okay. Your event is not over when the event is done. That is foolish.
Libby Sundgren [00:26:16]:
No, there’s so much to do. You have to like do all the, the communication and all the wrapping and the budget. And like the thing recapping and.
Katie Mack [00:26:30]:
It’S.
Libby Sundgren [00:26:30]:
So easy after it’s over to be like, I don’t want to touch anything on this for like a week. But you really don’t have that kind of luxury in event, you kind of have to just get on it.
Katie Mack [00:26:41]:
You maybe do. But what is it you have to build it in if that’s what you need, right? Or what is the flow out of it? Or how do you plan for it ahead of time? Like, what is the template? Because again, you have to ask yourself, like, what do I want to get out of this can be one of the things, right? Like, you know, do I want to know how much this impacted people? And sometimes giving people a week to reflect on it is good. I will also tell you that to get feedback it’s really hard once people leave the theater.
Elise [00:27:03]:
It is.
Katie Mack [00:27:04]:
You’ll never see them.
Libby Sundgren [00:27:05]:
Like, sure is, they’re out.
Katie Mack [00:27:08]:
So yeah, I mean I think they’re all little, little pockets. Like you can look at each little thing like, how can I get feedback at the event? How can I get feedback a day after? How can I get feedback after a week? And then how do you automate it to help your brains?
Libby Sundgren [00:27:22]:
What are your event hangovers like? Like, are you tired? Are you hungry? Do you just want to like lay? Are you, do you want to be out doing things but just not work related or you know, work or art related? Like what, what do you do? How do you reinvent hangovers, feel and what do you do to take care of them?
Katie Mack [00:27:41]:
I, I call them bluesing. So that’s just the term. And I tell people that I’m bluesing and oftentimes I’ll lean into like my community and I’ll say, hey, my show is going to be done in a week and I’m not going to be okay. Can you check in with me? So I’ll find myself with invitations. I’ll find myself with like, hey, have you gone to the movies? Which also is like a big self care routine for me. I like going to the movies. It’s a big event for me. I get a particular popcorn and put Twizzlers in it.
Katie Mack [00:28:09]:
I go to the movies by myself. It’s very intentional. I think the first thing I do is like, I don’t kid myself that I, that I’m going to be, I’m going to be sad. Even if it was great, it’s a lot of work. Oftentimes I look forward to being with like a lover or someone I feel intimate with. I’m not really like a checker outer. I have to like re. Remember that there’s something else afterwards.
Katie Mack [00:28:37]:
So I get that from community and being out in the world. So I go and start see other art. I attend other events. I’m looking for community, but I’m not necessarily looking for attention or to be tapped into more resources. So I will very intentionally set like, oh, I want to go to this poetry reading. I’ve never been to the poetry reading. I’m going to go to a haunted house. That’s some version of art.
Katie Mack [00:29:05]:
I’m going to. I’m. And then I’m going to ask you to show. That’s how I get over stuff. I just get scared.
Libby Sundgren [00:29:12]:
I got a good fright.
Katie Mack [00:29:16]:
But I, I actually like, I will hop on this just a little bit more. I. I think we think of it as optional. I think it’s irresponsible not to plan both like a mental health, which is just like. But like, like actually like space for it. It’s irresponsible. You’re doing a disservice not just to the event that you had, but to the next project you’re about to work on and then to yourself, friends and lovers, because you’re just a jerk. And you are a maker.
Katie Mack [00:29:45]:
You’re an event doer. I’m an art maker for my life. I want to do this forever. If I start to get nervous because I had a really bad hangover and I didn’t give myself the things that I needed, but my next event, that means my nervous system hasn’t calmed down and I’m not ready to make that thing. Like, you can’t make stuff out of like, like just based fear. I mean, you can. I’ve done it. But like, it’s not fun.
Katie Mack [00:30:11]:
And I want to do this for my whole life. I don’t. I don’t suddenly want to be like, you know what? I’m done making stuff. I think I’m gonna now. I couldn’t even think of anything I was gonna say I’m gonna now knit, which is making something. I couldn’t even think of anything. So I’m gonna now become part of a phone company. I don’t know.
Katie Mack [00:30:27]:
I don’t even know what that means. Sorry if it’s expensive, but I. And if that were to happen, it would mean that I went way too hard. So I, I think it’s irresponsible to not come up with a postmortem plan.
Elise [00:30:43]:
I think that’s a really powerful. Yeah, I think that’s a really powerful statement, theology, whatever you want to call it, because I don’t know that everybody does that. And I. The power of whether the event was a smashing success or a few things went wrong, which is usually the case. I love a good cry after an event and it could have been an amazing, like everything was great and went off like I wanted it to. But I love a good cry after an event because it’s just like, it’s so cleansing.
Katie Mack [00:31:18]:
Yeah. I think, I think the idea of also a cry representing like a goodbye, like there’s a little bit of like a baby funeral for the thing that you just worked on, because you can’t ever do it exactly the same way again. Like every night for a play, you’re doing the same play, but it’s a new situation, new circumstances, what worked. If you try to recreate the thing that worked the night before, it’ll fall flat. And so the same thing with events. If you had a smashing hit and you don’t sort of like say goodbye to it, you can, like, you can put together some things that worked well. But if you like, you know, if you’re not showing up with fresh eyes and fresh opportunities and you know you’re gonna, you’re gonna try to recreate the same thing exactly. I just don’t think you’re gonna get the same results.
Katie Mack [00:31:59]:
Cause you probably have different people coming and it’s a different event and there’s different objectives and there’s different. You’re different. You are different. Yeah.
Elise [00:32:06]:
How do you take all of this and how do you work with a team? I mean, yes, you did a one woman show, but like, you don’t even. When you do a one woman show, you’re working with other people. Like, there’s still other people. So what is your process around team building in connection with events?
Katie Mack [00:32:22]:
I think my fantasy always is that I am the dumbest person in the room. I. I’m like, I have this idea, is it dumb? And someone will be like, yes. And then I’m like, okay, I don’t think maybe we should work together.
Libby Sundgren [00:32:39]:
And then I was looking for like, when you were giving me it suggestions that before we started recording and I. You were like, is this. Don’t get mad if I say this, but is it the right one selected? I was like, yes, no, keep them coming. I. It’s not working. So I will take all the suggestions. Is it on?
Katie Mack [00:33:00]:
I. I kind of feel like creating your team again is part of the process because they’re going to have like hands and all of It. So, like, if you want a team where everyone’s, I don’t know, like, joyful and happy, because the event is about happiness, you should probably not hire somebody who’s just like a grumpy pants. Now, that person who’s grumpy pants has value, inherent worth or perspective. And you should hire them for a different project. We go back to the core of the thing, right? So it, it gets really like. So here’s a perfect example. I didn’t know what sober was because I knew I was gonna make it by myself.
Katie Mack [00:33:37]:
And at least you know this. But I didn’t know what it was until I realized, oh, the purpose of this is twofold. It’s about both being reflective in your own self and being able to, like, know that other people can make it through that. Other people have done it before you. It’s for the newcomer. And so how can I underline that? How can I underline the thesis statement of the project? And so I realized, oh, of course, it was like a light bulb. Every single voiceover and every single piece of music will be from an artist who’s in recovery or has some relationship with recovery. And that is top down, non negotiable.
Katie Mack [00:34:17]:
If you don’t know anybody or you kind of like, think, like, I don’t know, like, sobriety is, I don’t know, addiction is a choice. Like, sobriety is like, you know, you’re just kind of like, not willpowered. Like, I don’t want you on my team. I mean, and that again, like, you might be the best podcaster and you might want to work for free and you might want to give me all your time. That’s awesome. But, like, I don’t. You don’t get it. So you’re not at the core of the thing.
Katie Mack [00:34:40]:
So a little bit it’s. It’s about an alignment thing. What a word for other people. Like, I hate that. But it’s like, I kind of feel like you got to follow your compass. And this has happened to me a number of times where I’m working on a project. I’ve been gifted this opportunity, but the people at the top who are giving me money are not in alignment with the project. And I have taken it and, And I have not ended up in a good headspace.
Katie Mack [00:35:12]:
And I have never ended the relationships in those situations. I won’t say, I won’t say they all ended. We’ve ended those relationships. That. That doesn’t have to. I mean, like, we, like, our time has been done. I mean, it doesn’t have to be negative, but it’s like, yeah, I don’t want to work with that person again. But I knew, I knew from the very beginning.
Katie Mack [00:35:31]:
So I think what it, it comes back to clarity. And that sentence, that clear sentence about what this thing is about, I think again, just sort of like a mission statement. Like you keep looking at it, does it still hold up? Does this still hold up? Does it still hold up? And then the other thing is like, is the person like faking sincerity? Which is like, again, not necessarily for you to judge because like that can all look in different ways. You have to be open to your own biases. Like, is that person responding the way I would respond? Or you know, like, does happiness just sort of look like being early? Right. Or whatever. In this example of like creating the happiest team because you’re making the happiest event or whatever, does this happiness look like showing up early and maybe not talking, but taking really good notes or whatever? So being able to like look for those things to be able to create your team, not necessarily someone who looks exactly like you because now you’re just creating other use. And honestly, there should be no more me’s ever.
Katie Mack [00:36:19]:
That’s why I don’t have babies. So yeah, I mean, and, and seeing what kind of enthusiasm someone brings to the project, if someone is like thoughtful and, and feels like they can contribute and kind of like you don’t have to push them to be excited, they’re the right match and that it’s hard to find the right match. Sometimes you have to sort of compromise because you are also on a deadline. You need to make the thing. And yeah, I would encourage, if you can, not to, I think the person that you think is, you know, let people surprise you, but the person that you think is going to be the weak link often ends up being the weak link. And that can be maybe like you’re not communicating well with them. But I also just think like, can be bad timing. It’s like any other relationships.
Elise [00:36:58]:
I, you know, they’re depending on the size of event that you’re doing and how big your event team is. It could be five people, it could be 50 people, it could be 500 people. Right? Like there are always those people that they might be doing their best. I don’t know. I often will judge that they’re not, but like they’re running around, they look busy, but they’re not actually, they’re not actually doing anything to move the ball down the field. I don’t know why I’m making a sports analogy. I’m not sporty at all, but sports, go sports. But I was just talking to somebody the other day, like, it’s those, those people that’s hard for me.
Elise [00:37:43]:
That’s because I’m such a doer. I’m such a. Roll up my sleeves. I’ll, you know, I wouldn’t ask anyone to do anything I wouldn’t do myself.
Katie Mack [00:37:49]:
Like, I’m just like, I’m like that too. I think, I think, right. To approach those things. Like, it’s so easy to sort of be like, they’re not doing it the way that I would do it. I would have it done on a different timeline. I think like, clarity on what you’re looking for is only the first step, but like revisiting it and just being like. I think a lot of times we like to give. We’re giving people the benefit of the doubt while also doubting them, which I just think like sets them up for failure.
Katie Mack [00:38:16]:
Right. It’s sort of like, it’s one thing to be like, I think, like, I think the harm reduction in that is to nip it in the very beginning of the conversation. So we don’t know what the expectations are. We don’t know how we’re going to communicate this and this and this. Then, then you have to get really clear. Oh, you don’t communicate this way. Hey, I just want, you know, I’m a text message person. What can I maybe expect from you in this way? Like, and then if they’re able to respond or have some sort of reflective clarity on that, that’s fine.
Katie Mack [00:38:43]:
This is a deadline. What can I expect you from this thing? If this isn’t what we’re seeing, do we have. If, if I’m not being clear and you’re giving me something that isn’t good in the hypothetical thing, have we built in enough time for us to redo it? I think it’s the understanding that you’re going to have built in time because no one’s going to understand even as clear. Clear as you think you’re being. And you need to give people this space to fail and recalibrate. But like, and if they are not showing up in the way that you want them to. I actually think your job as a manager is to figure out how and why. And if it is like they have too much going on at home, then like, then hear it and give them something else to do.
Katie Mack [00:39:26]:
Like, I mean, I just think that there’s space for everything. And then also, like, you can consider the Whole thing. Like, a lot of times I’ve made projects where I’ve been like, oh, my expectation is that, like, I can. I can only expect this much from you. Even though I would love to expect more because I’m paying you $30 an hour. Like, I. That I can’t expect you to, like, do more than you can get done in this whatever amount of time. Like, thank you so much for doing that.
Katie Mack [00:39:51]:
Guess what? I didn’t have enough money. That’s the reality of the situation. Even though you said you could show up in this way, I hope you could show up in this way. I set us both up for failure, and we never recalibrated. You failed twice, and I just thought you were a failure. And now I didn’t know what to expect from you. I should recalibrate. What an idiot.
Katie Mack [00:40:11]:
We didn’t have enough money or time for this. I just did this with this project. I was like, I’ll have it done by November. I don’t know why I thought that. I thought that because I wanted to have a dumb man. November. I won’t have this project done before March. Like, when I started to talk about it, like, I was like, what an idiot.
Katie Mack [00:40:28]:
Of course I set myself up for failure. I set myself up. I set the company up. I set everybody up for failure. And the first thing is to, like, own that. What did I do to set that person up for failure? And if the thing is, like, I’ve done everything I can, it’s like, you probably haven’t, but maybe that’s all you can give yourself from some, you know, grace to be like, that’s all the managing tools I had at that time. That’s it. And to manage people, that’s hard.
Katie Mack [00:40:50]:
Managing people is hard.
Elise [00:40:52]:
Well, in events, you have to have thick, thick skin, right? You have to have a good level of communication, a good level of honesty. And the honesty really has to start with yourself.
Libby Sundgren [00:41:03]:
I was gonna say. I mean, I agree with what you said, Elise, but also, I think there is just something so powerful in giving people the opportunity. It’s something that we emphasize a lot at work. P2P. That if you’re failing, that’s not a bad thing necessarily. It certainly can be. But you can also learn so much. And, like, we.
Libby Sundgren [00:41:30]:
You can’t wait for something to be perfect or try to make everything perfect before you do it or while you’re doing it. You just. You have to, like, accept that not everything’s going to go the way you want it to. And you can do your very Best and make informed decisions and, you know, of course, do all the learning and research you can, but also, like, you’re going to learn more when you do it and don’t get it right and figure out what you do need to do to get it right. So I just think that’s really powerful. And I never really gave myself or anybody I worked with that kind of grace until I worked here, just because it is such a core part of our internal and external process. And I really wish someone had said that to me 20 years ago. You’re gonna fail and other people are, too, and just be okay with it and, you know, build.
Libby Sundgren [00:42:37]:
Like you said, build in time to expect that something is probably not going to be right and you’re going to want to fix it. So having that grace with yourself and other people is so important. Mistakes at full speed.
Katie Mack [00:42:51]:
Mistakes at full speed is such an invaluable lesson because again, like, you’re going to. You’re like the deadlines coming at full speed. Like, the things. All the things need to come together at full speed. And. And really, I think it’s also calibrating what is the degree of this failure, right? Like, if I am putting together a whole play and I set a deadline and I’m like, great, it’s going to be February 1st, and I’ve got this whole thing. I’ve got the team, I’ve gone to rehearsal and. And then suddenly I’m like, oh, my God, I forgot to book the venue.
Katie Mack [00:43:20]:
Like, I can’t. I can’t have that then happen on February 1st. There’s no if, ands or buts about it, right? Like, there’s nothing I can do.
Libby Sundgren [00:43:28]:
It’s a pretty big degree.
Katie Mack [00:43:29]:
It’s a big degree. But if. If I have. Sorry. If I have, like, the treadmill. Sorry. Which I, like, blew by and never really addressed, but, like, if I have the treadmill, the idea is like, you know, is this the ideal treadmill? No. Like, when I did it in Australia, I had to use a very different treadmill.
Katie Mack [00:43:46]:
And the idea was like, what do I lose and what do I gain? What do I really lose? Just because I want it to be like that, what am I really losing? So, like, let’s take a step back, right? Because I think we. With all events, we get like, no, I want it to look like this. I want it to be like this. I don’t know. It’s supposed to be like this. It has to be like this. It’s like, bro, people are coming in, they tired, they talking, they’re fighting with a boyfriend, like they whatever. Like they’re not paying attention to that one thing.
Katie Mack [00:44:10]:
And also, what’s the core of the thing? Do we lose the core of the thing if we don’t do it? So for me, every opportunity that I had to do Ugly Car, for example, I kept saying, like, non negotiable. It’s got to be this thing and this and this thing. Next event. I was like, oh, actually non negotiable. It’s just this thing and this thing. Next thing. I was like, nah, man, just get the treadmill up there and buy people in. We’ll start.
Katie Mack [00:44:28]:
Yeah, like it’ll be fine.
Elise [00:44:30]:
Well, and there’s. We talk about this at work. P2P a lot too. It’s like, don’t over produce.
Katie Mack [00:44:35]:
Yeah.
Elise [00:44:35]:
We’re not saying don’t have quality where that’s not what that is. But like, like look at what the thing is and what’s the appropriate amount of time and energy that should go into it when it’s good enough and you can move on to other things. Like sometimes, you know, done is better than good. Like you just gotta.
Katie Mack [00:44:54]:
I think almost always done is better than good. I mean, like. Right.
Elise [00:44:57]:
That can keep going. Just keep going. Well, as we wind down, obviously we could talk to you about all kinds of event things and life in general for 1800 hours. But is there. Can you look back in your childhood? Because hindsight being 20 20, I know I own. Have my own personal stories where I look back at things that I did as a kid that I look back and I’m like, oh, I was always supposed to grow up and be who I am because I was doing the kinds of things then that I’m still doing now. Putting on shows for my neighborhood. I mean, I put on an.
Elise [00:45:34]:
I made an art sculpture out of ice and I went around and I sold tickets and I got someone to sponsor my show. Right. Like I was an event production at seven. You guys, like, it was just in there.
Libby Sundgren [00:45:49]:
It’s in your blood.
Elise [00:45:50]:
Do you have stories like that? You have to. You have to.
Katie Mack [00:45:54]:
My stories because the core of everything for me is actually I think a lot of things. I’m. I have a lot of questions about why things are done the way that they’re done. And then I just like, want a lot of people to hang out with and I don’t like leaving anybody out. So as a kid I was just like, I had so many friends, just like, I. You didn’t, like, you showed up, like, didn’t speak any English like, I made you my friend, like immediately, like, I just, I love other people. I think they’re fascinating. My mom, she goes, we moved from Illinois to Michigan when I was five.
Katie Mack [00:46:30]:
She said the biggest going away party she’s ever seen in her life was for me as a five year old, multiple going away parties. I have no memory of this at all. I just, I love other people and it probably has a little bit to do with my own mental health stuff. I have borderline personality disorder. And so my sense of self is sort of the core of that, is that you have like a faulty sense of self. And so I was like, I don’t know if I like myself, but I know that I like you. And I think because of that, how it’s translated is that I just think everyone has an inherent value. I just think everyone’s so freaking interesting.
Katie Mack [00:47:06]:
I, I just, I. What I don’t have a lot of patience for is when people sort of lose that, like, authenticity and they sort of, you know, again, I hate that word. But they sort of act the way they think they’re supposed to act. And so like, it’s interesting when something’s in alignment with the way that we normally do things. Sure. But also like, I think that we can pick up on when someone is. And I’ve done it many times, been in spaces, tried to fit in spaces, you know, put on what I call like my goth clothes of like, you know, I’m trying on this new identity and it hits or it doesn’t. But I, I do think that’s the core of everything.
Katie Mack [00:47:40]:
And I try to create space. I end up creating spaces again because I wanted them and I couldn’t find them. No one had done them. And I’m pissed off. But now I have to do it. And if I’m going to do it, then I need to be responsible on how I’m going to take care of, or at least try to take care of the people that I’ve asked to come to the table. I’m in charge of that. I’m responsible for those people’s well being.
Katie Mack [00:48:03]:
I’m responsible for the clarity of them. I have to take that on. This is my idea. Nobody should care about this idea more than me. Unfortunately, no one, no one’s supposed to. And that is like a hard pill to swallow. Like no one, not my partner, not my best friend, not my parents, not whatever. No one should care about this idea more than me.
Katie Mack [00:48:20]:
And I’ve asked for your time and your attention and so I might as well like you know, it. It’s just sort of ends up being like, how can I get a bunch of people that I like around me to maybe help me come up with this idea? And if. And it, like, and then how can we play together? That’s like, really, it. I’m just a. I’m a. I’m a child.
Libby Sundgren [00:48:40]:
Just play dates. Play dates.
Katie Mack [00:48:43]:
I just want to play with you, and I don’t want you to feel alone. Like, everyone, there’s like, there’s like, enough room for all of us to, like, there. We can all play on this thing. Oh, this is too small. Let’s make something bigger.
Elise [00:48:55]:
Well, fundamentally, that’s events. Events.
Katie Mack [00:48:58]:
Yeah.
Elise [00:48:58]:
Equal connection. Like, full stop. That’s it.
Katie Mack [00:49:01]:
That’s.
Elise [00:49:02]:
If you don’t. If you don’t like people, you probably shouldn’t be in the event industry. Like. Like, I don’t want to bury the lead here. Like, you do have to be a lover of people and a lover of fostering connections.
Katie Mack [00:49:13]:
I think it happens all the time. I think a lot of people who don’t like other people are in events. There are a lot of directors who don’t like actors. There’s a lot of screenwriters who don’t like making movies. Right. Like, which actually you can do differently. But like. Like, there are these things that I think, like, are.
Katie Mack [00:49:29]:
That don’t make sense. And I think some of it is accolades. And I think you. You could find the same thing but in a different realm. You know, I think it’s way more fun to show up to an event and like people. It’s just way more fun baseline. Like, what is more fun?
Elise [00:49:45]:
Katie Mack, you have been a surprise and delight. I had no doubt that we would have so much fun with this conversation. Can you let our many, many, many, many, many listeners.
Libby Sundgren [00:49:55]:
There’s so many of them.
Elise [00:49:57]:
So many of them.
Libby Sundgren [00:49:58]:
I almost need two hands to count them.
Elise [00:50:00]:
Find you. But be careful because we. We. It could. You know, our fan base could take your websites and social media platforms down because the hive is so big. But where can they.
Libby Sundgren [00:50:11]:
Ready for a crash.
Katie Mack [00:50:12]:
I’m just hearing, like, a lot of sexy things happening here, but you can. I. And not only I would love for people to find me, I would love for someone to say, I have an idea and I need a community. Because, like, in the same way that, like, people have shown up for me, I love showing up for people in that way. I think there’s nothing more difficult than having an idea and not figuring out how to. How to express it, how to birth it. I think there is nothing more painful than that. Fight me.
Katie Mack [00:50:35]:
So yeah, if you have an idea and you’re sick of talking to your lover about it and they’re about to break up with you, call me. My cell phone number is no, you can find me at Mackers. M A C K E R S n y c that’s on Instagram. Sober podcast fck I n g 90 underscore podcast and then www.macstage.comm a c k S T A G E.
Libby Sundgren [00:51:02]:
And.
Katie Mack [00:51:02]:
If you message me, I will message you back. Because I’m like, she will.
Elise [00:51:06]:
I can attest to that.
Libby Sundgren [00:51:08]:
I can attest she will.
Elise [00:51:09]:
I’m blown away. You too can become best friends with Katie Mac.
Katie Mack [00:51:14]:
It’s actually, it’s possible at least. Might be the only one that it’s worked with, but one in a million.
Elise [00:51:20]:
All right, well, that’s a wrap to this episode of Beats Working. If you have an idea for Katie Mac or for Elise and Libby and you want to reach out, please email us at infoatsworking Show. Remember, every detail matters, every moment counts, and no matter what, the show must go on. Until next time, thanks for listening to Beats Working, Winning the game of events where we explore what it takes to make moments unforgettable.
Libby Sundgren [00:51:49]:
If you’re leaving with a little more inspiration, a little more perspective, and a big sideache from all of the laughing at our funny jokes, then we’ve done our job.
Elise [00:51:59]:
Beats working is a work P2P production. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review us on your favorite podcast platforms.
Libby Sundgren [00:52:09]:
Your support helps us keep the magic going.
