The current generation entering the workforce may have more power than any generation in decades. As baby boomers age out, there are fewer workers to replace them.
That competition for talent, along with changes brought about by the pandemic, has many employers asking, “Where is the line between entitlement and advocacy?” In other words, what’s the “new normal” for attracting, compensating, and retaining workers?
We gathered a panel of top entrepreneurs to tackle the issue for this month’s episode of Contributors Corner. All are past guests on the BEATS WORKING podcast. The panel includes Shannon Waller from Strategic Coach, Jeff Kaas, owner of Kaas Tailored, Dr. James Bryant, CEO of Engineer Your Success, and André Brisson, host of The Impulsive Thinker podcast.
Our contributors all agree this is the new normal, so in this episode, they offer helpful strategies for employers and employees (that will work at any stage in your career).
Resources from the episode:
- Our contributors are on LinkedIn! Connect with Shannon Waller, Jeff Kaas, Dr. James Bryant, and André Brisson.
- Listen to “The Power of Coaching,” our episode with Shannon Waller, here.
- Listen to “Growing Your Business by Growing Your People,” our episode with Jeff Kaas, here.
- Listen to “How to Win at Work and at Home,” our episode with Dr. James Bryant, here.
- Listen to “Working with ADHD ,” our episode with André Brisson, here.
- Learn more about Strategic Coach, the #1 business coaching program for entrepreneurs, here.
- Get to know more about Kaas Tailored on their website, and learn more about Jeff’s consulting company, Truth Bit Pull, and how they guide organizations through their own transformation into sustainable cultures of continuous improvement.
- Learn more about how Dr. Bryant helps others solve the dilemma of work-life balance through his company, Engineer Your Success, here.
- Listen to Brisson’s Tactical Breakthroughs podcast here and visit Brisson’s Tactical Breakthroughs website to learn more about him and start your ADHD transformational journey.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: André Brisson, Dr. James Bryant, Jeff Kaas, Shannon Waller, and Mark Wright
DR. JAMES BRYANT 00:00
To that business owner who is looking at this issue, you have a choice to approach this from a position of challenge or curiosity. You can challenge it, right? And there’s going to be some conflict because you may be trying to hold on to ideals and processes that you don’t need to hold on to. You may or may not. I don’t know. Only you can judge that. However, if you approach it with curiosity, then you have the ability to co-create with your younger employees, to co-create as people are coming in to see if you can speed up that process to get them to be working in that unique ability, and that’s going to increase your productivity. And when you have happy people that are working and your productivity is increasing, that should increase your profits as well.
MARK WRIGHT 00:48
This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work – the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. The current generation entering the workforce may have more power than any generation in decades. As baby boomers age out, there are simply fewer workers to replace them. That competition for talent, along with changes brought about by the pandemic, has a lot of employers asking, where is the line now between entitlement and advocacy? In other words, what’s the new normal when it comes to attracting, compensating, and retaining workers? We gathered a panel of top entrepreneurs to tackle the issue for this month’s episode of Contributors Corner. All are past guests of the BEATS WORKING podcast. The panel includes Shannon Waller from Strategic Coach, Jeff Kaas, owner of Kaas Tailored, Dr. James Bryant, CEO of Engineer Your Success, and André Brisson, host of the Impulsive Thinker podcast. Now our contributors all agree, this is a new normal. But they also offer strategies for both employers and employees that can work in any business and at any stage of your career. Well, as we start out, I feel like we’ve won the brain trust lottery here when I look at the people we have assembled for Contributors Corner this month. This is going to be so much fun. Welcome to Contributors Corner. This is the monthly feature of the BEATS WORKING, Winning the Game of Work podcast. So, in this month’s episode, we’re going to examine entitlement versus advocacy in the workplace. A shift is taking place in the American workplace and probably Canada as well, since we’ve got some Canadian representation as well, seems to be handing more power to employees than ever before. I think, you know, the pandemic really accelerated some of this, as remote workers showed that they could do more in less time while working from home, and now as more baby boomers retire, competition for fewer workers is also driving this trend. So let us jump in and introduce our contributors today. We have Shannon Waller from Strategic Coach; Jeff Kaas from Kaas Tailored Manufacturing; Dr. James Bryant, founder of Engineer Your Success; and André Brisson, host of the Impulsive Thinker podcast. So great to have all of you here. Welcome and thank you. Okay, before we jump in, I’d love to hear from each of you a brief statement about the current work that you’re doing, and then also, what the workplace was like when you first started in your career. So, Shannon, let’s start with you.
SHANNON WALLER 03:32
Okay, Shannon Waller here, uh, entreal team strategist is my favorite unique ability title that I have. Um, and so what I’m up to is a bunch of things. So, I’m one of Dan Sullivan’s creative collaborators, work on the quarterly books and inside Strategic Coach podcast. Also, um, with in partnership with a colleague in charge of all of our team plus programs. So all of our associate programs we have for team members of our clients and, and I’m also a coach, 10x coach. I’m also sitting in the marketing seat at the moment. Um, so a few a few things to keep me off the streets but what’s interesting when I started so I started in July of 1991. So, so 32 years ago, and I was really hired during a recession, so 1991 was not a fun time to be looking for work. And I was very grateful to be able to find coach and them to find me. And it really was a great, a great match. But it was a lot of scarcity from my side, from the employee’s side, about where am I going to work? And I left a very, for, for my age, I was 26 when I joined, um, I left a very well-paying job. I worked at kajillion hours. I had the highest billable hours in the company. Mostly now because I knew I wasn’t doing what I was supposed to be doing and I wasn’t all that quick at it. Um, but that’s a whole other story. Um, but yeah, so I just, so it was a very, very, very different work environment and then I stepped into sales. So it was sink or swim. You know sale or, sale or fail. Fortunately, I swam. Um, so yeah, so that’s kind of how it all, it all started for me.
MARK WRIGHT 05:04
Wow. That’s really interesting. And Shannon, if, if those of you listening are not familiar with Strategic Coach, it’s an amazing organization. Uh, Google that stuff as my wife says. Shannon, thank you. André, let’s go to you. Current work and, uh, what, what was it like when you started out in the workforce?
ANDRÉ BRISSON 05:20
Uh, for me, I’ve got an engineering company that, uh, entrepreneurial engineering company, which is an oxymoron on its own, um, solving the most impossible things that most engineers give up on, um, also got, uh, tactical breakthroughs, which I’m working with high achieving ADHD entrepreneurs with the help with my podcast, uh, the Impulsive Thinker. And for me, when I started, it was definitely totem pole, you’re on the bottom, you have to work your way up, we had the, if you work hard, extra hours, you’re going to make it through, you can succeed, you can sit in the corner office, um, that was the corporate world, then I went to an entrepreneurial company, which was the same mentality, but a lot of freedom to do stuff, but in the end, when I started my first engineering company, I did, I didn’t like the way that work style was, so I’ve, you know, what everyone’s saying they’re demanding today, I’ve been providing it since 2007. Um, cause I did not like that idea of someone owning you, and not caring about you and understanding you. Um, it’s one of my drives my whole life, is why are you unique, why are you different, and let’s make that to your benefit, which benefits everyone around. So, definitely old school, work hard, shut up, do what you’re told, even though it’s not right. Um, just shut up and make the boss look good.
SHANNON WALLER 06:42
And André, you probably weren’t very, Shannon here, you probably weren’t great at that anyway. So no wonder you created an environment.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 06:48
Highly unemployable for sure.
MARK WRIGHT 06:52
André has told us that in the past, he was very unemployable, which has led to his current success. All right, James, what about you? Current work and, uh, what things were like when you started?
DR. JAMES BRYANT 07:02
Alright. This is James Bryant. I am a executive coach. I run Engineer Your Success where I serve as your guide to winning at work and at home. So, I help engineers and business owners with the slim background design and live a life where you can win at work and at home. Um, really enjoy being on the podcast, Mark, when we had, when we had our episode, but in terms of when I started out at work, very similar to what Andrew was saying. So, I started out in my engineering career. It was, hey, here, here’s all of the guidebooks. Here’s all of the things that you need to read through, go in this corner, figure it out. And the whole mentality particularly for the generations before me was you find yourself a good, you know, stable job, you work there for a gazillion years, and then you retire and maybe you do something that you, that you like to do, but this is kind of what’s going to be expected of you.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 08:02
Great phrase. Expected of you. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 08:06
Wow. That’s cool. All right. Jeff Kaas.
JEFF KAAS 08:09
Yeah. Tough question. So, the working part, what I spend my day most of the time doing is helping, uh, organizations and people, people in those organizations apply flow thinking, uh, in everything they do. So, uh, it’s cool that, that, uh, a bunch of helpers here, so I’m not sure how much help I give them, but we have a good time. Uh, so yeah. And then, uh, the workplace I’ve worked in in my, my dad’s small business so that it was just get to work. Um, there wasn’t really for me much of a idea that I had to climb anything because I was busy cleaning toilets and stuff. So, um, so yeah, the work environment at that time we were small business. So, it was it was really just about growth and, and, you know, survival. So very minimalistic. So, my experience is a little bit different than the rest, I guess.
MARK WRIGHT 08:57
Yeah. And Jeff, you’ve said in, you know, previous episodes, even though, that you make industrial furniture, you, you’re in the business of developing human beings.
JEFF KAAS 09:06
Yeah. Oh yeah. Sorry. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 09:08
No, no. I’ve gotten to know your story by now, my man.
JEFF KAAS 09:11
You know us. You know us well.
MARK WRIGHT 09:13
That’s awesome. Well, I wanted to start our discussion today just by, I pulled a few surveys from various publications, Fortune, Insider, CNBC, um, and I just want to see what you guys think about this. Uh, a new survey from Handshake found that 80% of upcoming college graduates have already experienced burnout and they worry they will experience burnout once they start working. 80%! These are college seniors. Gen Z expects their employer to support their mental health and work-life balance, meaning companies that offer mental and health benefits will see benefits. Um, from Insider, working in an office full-time is a no-go for some people who desperately want remote work. A recent survey from Bankrate found that 64% of US workers would rather work fully remote instead of fully in-person. The study also found 68% of people support a hybrid model over being fully in-person. And when they can’t get that flexibility, they are willing to leave a job to get it. And one more, uh, this is from CNBC workers overwhelmingly want a four-day work week on one condition. So according to a new survey, 87% of U. S. workers say they’d be interested in a four-day workweek. 82% believe widespread adoption would be successful, but this decreases to only 51% of workers supporting when coupled with a no remote, remote work, uh, clause in that. So that’s just sort of a tidbit of some recent surveys of kind of what’s going on in the American workplace. And I’d love to hear from the group and whoever wants to jump in, maybe let’s start with, with, uh, Shannon. Shannon, uh, you know, your HR department sent over some really interesting thoughts and they, they sort of mirror what, what some of those surveys, uh, said and I was intrigued by, by what your folks sent over, what are you guys seeing when it comes to what the expectation is as people are entering the workforce?
SHANNON WALLER 11:14
There’s a lot. And I got a wonderful list because I’m not involved in most of the hiring, which is by the way, a really good thing. Cause I’d be bad if it was. So, I got a deep dive from our phenomenal team who does recruiting. And I do want to make one caveat. Um, not unlike you, Jeff, I’ve always worked for entrepreneurial companies. Right. So, I think one of the important distinctions here is, are, is, are we talking about people joining large corporate organizations or are we talking about people joining entrepreneurial companies? Cause there is a vast difference in terms of expectations and deliverables. And I have a, I have a sense that to kind of answer your question, Mark, is that people are taking back their autonomy. They’re taking back ownership of their time. They’re taking back agency over their life and their lifestyle because the old contract that used to exist is you would, if you worked really long and really hard, then you would have lifetime employment or something equivalent, right? That promise went out the window in the long time ago in the 80s, right when I actually didn’t say this I work for a small company before Strategic Coach. I graduated in 87. That’s when I was first looking for work. So, it was scarce pick slim pickins. So, I think that that contract is gone, um, which has its pluses and minuses, obviously. I think there’s a lot more opportunity to do what they, work that they love to do, that they find fulfilling, that’s great for them, great for their families. I think people do want to make a contribution. I don’t think people want to be lazy or purposeless. I don’t see that at all. Uh, but if they are going to work, and they’re very aware of the exchange of commitment of time and energy in exchange for time and money, right? They’re very clear on that dynamic. And so, it’s up to employers to make it worth their while. And to treat them as full human beings, as opposed to cogs in a wheel. We’re, we’re now completely into the world that I can see of creative human work as opposed to being cogs, cogs in a wheel. Uh, so it’s, it’s a different world. And I, and I actually kind of enjoy the changes. I want to work with people with agency, and ownership and creativity. Uh, but it is very challenging for, for workplaces for sure.
JAMES BRYANT 13:31
This is James. What I was going to say is that there is a difference between a corporate, a large corporation in an entrepreneurial corporation. However, the younger generation that are coming, they don’t have the contract that we had. They’re not trying to take back their time or recapture their life from a, a working perspective, this is the expectation that they have coming in. So, there are, you know, we’re, we’re in, we have a mixed generation workforce. So, there are some people who have had that aha moment and now they, they are wanting to recapture their time. They’ve experienced freedom, you know, what was going on in the pandemic, working from home, and that kind of opened up a floodgate, but there’s a whole subset of folks that never experienced the other part of what we all experienced, we were talking about earlier.
SHANNON WALLER 14:18
Yeah, but James, the other thing I said they saw their parents, right? They saw their parents I mean, I’ve worked with Strategic Coach for 32 years. Do you know how weird that is? No one’s worked anywhere for 32 years. Um, but yeah, so, so it could be their generation. It could be a previous generation where it’s just, you know, three to five years is a long time in a company these days. Um, so I, I agree with you, but I do think there are past models that they’re like, that ain’t, that ain’t me. And they’re off to something different.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 14:49
Yeah. André here. I remember in grade school and high school, so late 80s, early 90s, we were told at that time we would have five career changes or five job changes. So, I think what’s happened is even Gen Xers, we didn’t like what we saw when we first got on the job site. It’s slowly converting, like I created a new environment. People were starting to see it, but it rushed up. But like, like to James point, like it’s what their expect expectations are. It’s not necessarily reality, right? But at the same, and then we always seem to forget about the reality thing and live in, um, in an imagination and fantasy land. But at the same time, the surveys, Mark, you referenced it’s everyone who was willing, even COVID that was frustrating me. Everyone was saying, I’m willing to leave my job if, if, if, if, but there’s no surveys out there about who actually did. So that’s the missing information for me, but there’s a difference between expectation and realities and the trend I’m kind of seeing entitlement versus advocacy we talked about. There’s a difference between being titled, being I demand this versus I require these accommodations. Therefore, I will benefit you and me. That’s a subtle difference. To Shannon’s point, I think there’s a trend that had been coming, going on. Um, and it’s, it’s finally here. It was just kind of thrown in our face. But, you know, entitlement versus advocacy is a really good point that needs to be understood here.
SHANNON WALLER 16:15
I just want to weigh in on that because I, at least one of our sayings at Coach, one of the things I wrote about in my Team Success Handbook, was a no entitlement attitude. Like, we actually ask in our interview process, what do you think you’re entitled to as a result of working with Coach, and if they answer anything, they’re out of the process. Like if they say nothing, I just want, I want to contribute and expect, you know, compensation and stuff like that. Great. We can talk. If they say, oh, I think I’m entitled to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, bye-bye. It’s just not, it’s not an option to work with us in an entrepreneurial company. Cause we’re all about value creation. You know, it’s not about what we’re entitled to. A bureaucracy is a better fit for that.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 17:00
Right. And that’s the other thing. That’s the other note I had here was actually about, you know, people want to do less and make more, but there’s no talk about improving value by working less. That’s where I kind of get a bit of an issue here. I don’t care if you want to do less or work less or work less stuff you’re not good at, but we got to build value here and not just be entitled to make more by physically doing less.
MARK WRIGHT 17:21
Yeah. Jeff, I’d love to hear from you. You’ve got a lot of employees, and I think in an email that we exchanged before, you know, our time here today is that you feel, not guilty, but you feel like things are going really well when it comes to aligning your work with people who, uh, you hire.
JEFF KAAS 17:41
Yeah, we’ve been lucky, um, and we might have done something right, and it’s always hard to know which part is which. Um, um, but all these survey things like I want this to like, uh, so, um, if they’ve experienced burnout at any age, um, they had a hand in it. But the way that we’ve organized businesses causes it. And this is why we are so passionate about creating flow. When you organize a work with 50 percent of the time being one of the seven wastes causes burnout. So that’s a little bit heartbreaking to hear that. Um, um, if you heard that my little factory cut off one finger a day, just because, you know, we operate our business in such a way, I’d probably be on the news on day three. And if I said, well, everybody has 10 fingers, got 150 people, that’s 1500 fingers. So, give me a few more months because I’m still trying to figure out how to run my business, you know, in a way. We’d be on the news, right? But somehow, it’s okay to give somebody four hours a day of pure crap, harming them, harming their, their health by causing anxiety related to other things. So, so why is it that we’re allowed to basically abuse people for a living? Um, but we can’t cut off fingers. Because my grandpa had, he lost a couple fingers and all he had was great stories to tell, right? So, so I look at this and I’m like, this list is great. Do I want to work a four-day workweek? Our factory already is. I’m trying to figure out how to live within a three-day workweek because these constraints cause innovation. Um, and this other part within this, like keeping agency James, I think it’s a great point. This generation has lived with agency. They actually know maybe what that word means. They don’t want to give that up. They saw their parents maybe or maybe didn’t. But, uh, so, um, so I see these as yes, do that society could be a lot better if we were working four days a week for money, but also spending time serving each other the other three days a week. So yeah, so I look at these surveys results and go, yep, I want more of that. How do we do that? Um, it’s a reasonable request.
JAMES BRYANT 19:38
And I would, and Jeff, I would add to André’s point in a way in which we’re mutually creating value. But it has to be in a way in which we are mutually creating value.
JEFF KAAS 19:51
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 19:53
Yeah. You don’t want to end up like some of those countries where they give, give away, you know, give away too much, and then pretty soon they’re insolvent.
JEFF KAAS 20:00
No, it’s not about giving it away just to be, uh, this is Jeff again. It’s not about giving away. It’s, it’s let’s create value together. Let’s do it so efficiently that we have time for other things. So, we have to finance our, uh, ability to play or, or live by working together. And the method for me is just work without waste. So, we have more time to goof off. So, it’s, uh, I’m a businessperson. I’m not a socialist. I don’t believe in handouts in any way whatsoever, but I don’t think that we should be able to operate our business in such a way that hurts people. So, yeah, thanks for that.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 20:31
And a lot of people, it’s André, keep forgetting who pays the bills. We keep wanting this stuff for us, but it’s the customer that lacks, that gets hurt in the end, just like the tech world right now. Yeah. They’re giving people all this time off of stuff, but the customer service goes bad. And then I just got two, two rate increases because they can, right? So, in the end, we got to remember it’s the customer. Like I remember someone guy said, I can give you less time to work, but how does that benefit the customer in the end? Cause they pay the bills.
MARK WRIGHT 21:00
Yeah, you know, what’s interesting is that there’s, uh, you know, I don’t think we ever would have seen this in the past, but there’s a county, uh, near Seattle, uh, San Juan County, and they’ve gone to a four-day work week for their, uh, entire workforce, not, not counting first responders. Um, you’d never would have seen that in the past, but they said they’re doing it. So that they can be more competitive and attracting the best candidates for the job. Um, we work a four-day workweek at WORKP2P. Um, company founded by my boss, Dan Rogers. Um, I went to the doctor the other day. I go to a, a pretty, uh, amazing, uh, metabolism doctor. Uh, because I have what’s called metabolic syndrome. Um, and she does extensive labs every four months. Like, like super extensive measures everything in the body you can possibly measure related to metabolism. And she said, oh my gosh, your stress hormone is the lowest it’s ever been in 10 years. And I don’t think this is a, I don’t think this is a coincidence. This is the first lab I’ve had since since, uh, starting well, the second starting this, this amazing journey, uh, with Dan Rogers, um, and everything else, everything else is optimal. And so, there’s actually scientific proof in this study of one.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 22:19
Is that because you’re working four days or the environment’s better suited for you?
MARK WRIGHT 22:24
It’s all of the above. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s an amazing team. Um, you know, Dan, my boss is like, hey, make mistakes at full speed. I’m going to support you. Let’s, let’s go for this.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 22:35
And then you got Tamar picking you up.
MARK WRIGHT 22:37
Yeah, Tamar, our, our show producer who literally keeps me on track and I love her, uh, even though, you know, she’s, she’s my, well, André is my second favorite Canadian, Tamar is my first favorite Canadian.
SHANNON WALLER 22:51
Well, I’m going to have to work hard to get up on that list.
MARK WRIGHT 22:54
I know Shannon, I forgot about Shannon. You know, what I would love to jump into at this point is that I’m sure there are a lot of business owners at this point who maybe, maybe you’re doing it the old way. Um, and they’re still sort of thinking this, thinking of this as a struggle with the new generation of employees. I’d love for us to kind of give, let’s give that business owner or business manager some, some advice on how to navigate these waters. So, it’s done in a way that benefits everyone.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 23:26
But why is the old way completely bad? Like, everyone’s trying to toss the, the, the baby out with the, whatever that phrase is. Baby out of the washtub or bathtub. Bathwater. Like, there’s still good parts from the past system that’s still viable. So, to me, it’s just, you know, the old ways, the old way, never do it. The new ways not necessarily will work. Either, or parts of it will, but not all of it.
SHANNON WALLER 23:52
Um, Shannon here, I think the parts of it that people resist are, is the mindset. This, this conversation was around millennials, which at this point is an old conversation, and I’m not terribly interested in completely resurrecting it. It’s like, oh, you have to pay your dues. Like you have to do crappy work, Jeff, to your point. Um, you don’t get to do interesting work, challenging work. You have to put in five, ten, eight, twenty years before you can get up there and I, and I think that I do think that world is gone. And if, if that’s your mindset and that’s how you want to work, good luck. You better hire a lot of older people who can put up with that crap because it’s not, it’s not reality. I am, I’m much more on the side we, Jeff, we call it unique ability when people are doing what they love to do and are best at. Oh my gosh. It’s also, by the way, how to get, how to, how to get the best results, the fastest. So, the whole idea of if finding people, so this would be my coaching. First of all, the world you’re living in now is not the world you grew up in. So, pay attention. Number two is there are some incredibly talented, gifted people who want to work, who want to learn, who want to contribute. Find a way for them to make a difference in your company and don’t penalize them and have them doing stupid stuff that frankly could be automated when there’s creativity there. I mean, the track record of 20-somethings is kind of incredible in terms of creativity. So why don’t we create an environment where they can win and be successful and see what they can do? Like, my daughter, one daughter’s 20, and my other one’s 23, and she is a go-getter. If I could hire her yesterday, I would, like having her in my business, having her partner Sebastian and like her friends whom I adore, the 20-somethings I know are hardworking, committed, talented, capable people. Like I do not want to diss them at all because they’re amazing. And I just think we have to create an environment where that, where they can win.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 25:49
Yeah. I don’t think a lot of people are dissing the hard work of the younger generation. It’s just. Like with the Millennials, even when I was growing up, people were saying we’re lazy, we don’t do anything, but I came to the conclusion that every generation has the same percentage of lazy people, right? So just at the time of Millennials, there was a hell of a lot more of them than Gen Xers because the number ratio, right, the percentage was the same. I know a lot of people I went to school with, they’re lazy, they just wanted a job where they just come in, shut their brain off, or give me, give me, give me entitlement. But,
SHANNON WALLER 26:20
André, I think that is the best analysis I’ve heard yet. Brilliant.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 26:26
Yeah. And then it’s just, it’s like, I think part of the conversation is if we can find those diamonds in the rough, they’re really hard workers and understand work and get it. But it’s also dealing with the people who don’t get it, who are entitled is actually the biggest frustration and they’re making demands that are unreasonable. That’s where I think a lot of conversation is not talked about. It’s just what we want. Everyone expects this, but there’s reality. And in a way, you still got to earn. You’re, you’re, you’re way, in a certain extent, that by being creative, if you’ve got the right environment, like Mark, you know, you’re really getting to work in your, your environment the way you want to, your unique ability. And you’re proving yourself by doing what you do best, and you’re allowed to. So, in a way you’re earning your keep by doing, rather than being pushed on what you’re supposed to do and by someone else’s measuring stick, we should be using our own measuring stick or the measuring stick for that person.
JAMES BRYANT 27:22
This is James. I would add to that to that business owner who is looking at this issue. You have a choice to approach this from a position of challenge or curiosity. You can challenge it right and there’s going to be some conflict because you may be trying to hold on to ideals and processes that you don’t need to hold on to. You may or may not. I don’t know. Only you can judge that. However, if you approach it with curiosity, then you have the ability to co-create with your younger employees, to co-create as people are coming in, to see if you can speed up that process to get them to be working in that unique ability. I think in the past there was a longer runway to get to that unique ability, and we would possibly get there 10 years. We’re working, we’re, we’re chipping away and eventually, it may become evident. Um, you know, we, there may be some discontent, they may have been discontent there and that discontent drove us to seek alternative paths until we found what may work for us. And for the younger generations, they may have a better sense of what that unique ability is, or at least that desire of what they want to be. And so, you have the ability now to co-create this path with those employees to help them get there sooner. And that’s going to increase your productivity. And when you have happy people that are working and your productivity is increasing, that should increase your profits as well.
SHANNON WALLER 28:51
I love your, Shannon here, I love your, your term co-create James, right? And that curiosity and then there’s so much opportunity. It’s kind of ridiculous, right? I just, I love that.
MARK WRIGHT 29:05
Jeff you’ve had tens of thousands of people tour your factory the first time that I walked in and my boss prepared me, you know, Dan Rogers is a good friend of yours, uh, by, by any standard, I mean, what you do for a living, you could have a sweatshop, I mean, you literally could, and you could be making money by running a sweatshop, but when I walked into your, your factory, it’s open, it’s green, there are plants, people are smiling, you’ve got a system to, to let people know when somebody needs help. I mean, that it’s, you’ve proven that there’s a more enlightened way of doing all this. This all started back when you went to Japan and studied the Toyota method. But what, what do you tell those employees, uh, employers? Because you get them all the time and they’re like, okay, where do I, where do I start?
JEFF KAAS 29:56
Yeah, I always start with the owner, right? So, um, and, um, however you became an owner, some of them, you know, uh, were accident owners, and some of them did it intentionally. But, um, there’s a lot of fear, at least for me as a leader, not knowing where to go. And also, I’m not telling people I don’t know where to go. So, uh, this co-creation part would really be, um, you know, if you’re an owner and you think you know everything, um, I can’t help you. So, if you’re an owner and you know you don’t know everything, then this group of people really can help you. Um, and harnessing that energy of that next generation is crazy fun. Um, like I, I actually don’t look at their generation and say they want something different. I think that they deserve what the older people deserve, too. And it really starts with an embracing of, hey, they’re human beings. They’re here to create value. How do we create an environment that creates more value? It doesn’t matter what color you are or where you came from. Um, or, you know, how old you are. I just think that they happen to have experience working in flow and can shed a light on what does it feel like to actually live that way. So yeah, um, the owners are really, uh, to me, it’s, it’s, uh, I’m always looking for, are you stupid or evil? If you’re both, I can’t help you. If you’re stupid, it’s okay, because I’m stupid too. Sorry, it’s terrible, but it is just true. Yeah. So, if you’re stupid, we can help you, right? But if you’re evil, I, I just don’t help them. So, an evil to me looks like you’re selfish Fs that just want to make money for yourself. So if you’re all about that, keep going and write it out. You know, get yourself a golf course down in Florida. Um, but if you’re all about creating value for society, and you’re willing to admit that you are building on the shoulders of men and women before you, and you have some sense of purpose of what you leave behind in the next generation, then you have no choice but to embrace the truth, and, uh, you know, get going. Harness it, so. It really just depends on that leader. It’s, it’s, what are you there for? If you’re there just to make money for yourself, then, uh, just ignore all this stuff and go back to making money.
JAMES BRYANT 32:00
So, Jeff, is this a, oh, go ahead, André, I cut you off before. You, you got it.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 32:03
No, no, I’m really impulsively. I do impulsively. Can’t wait. Cause now I forgot. No. Yeah, I did. Go ahead, James.
JAMES BRYANT 32:11
No, no, no. Go, go, go. You’re good.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 32:13
Oh, seriously. It’s gone.
JAMES BRYANT 32:14
Oh, man. So, so Jeff, I’m sorry, André. Jeff, is this a situation where your, your approach is to whom much is given much is required because you talk about the business owner and their responsibility. And the assumption in the way that you tee this up is that the employee wants to add value. Now, what if you’re running into that employee that has an entitlement mentality? They’re not necessarily looking to add value, but they’re looking out for themselves. How do you deal with those situations?
JEFF KAAS 32:45
A direct conversation. And it’s really just, hey, I see that you’re able to create value. We had a guy yesterday playing solitaire instead of working. So, we could say, hey, you’re fired, you’re out of here. Or we could say, hey, buddy, playing solitaire, uh, while you’re working, when we’re behind schedule, that doesn’t fit who we are. We know you’re capable. We know you’re wicked smart. So, this is a place where you can contribute. No is okay. So, um, and the excuse was he did take his meds and, you know, something like that. And I think that’s a true answer to it because, um, I think that he, he said, I just got distracted. Didn’t mean to. So, my old way would have been that guy’s out of here. He’s playing solitaire. Um, but so upon just showing a little bit of respect, but you know, there are for sure people who want to just milk and receive. Um, so we, we aren’t about that we’re about serving one another so and we just are really really clear if you don’t want to serve people, this isn’t the place for you. Totally okay, we know we’re weird. But if you’re here, we’re gonna serve one another and milk and the clock just isn’t one of the ways you do that.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 33:45
André here. So along with what Jeff was saying and like James was mentioning before like you’ve got a unique way of doing it Jeff, and that has a lot to do with your values. So, what I want to say to the business owner right now is just because it’s all clickbait, you know, all this stuff, how you’re supposed to do it, blah, blah, blah, these surveys in the end, do what you think is best for your company. Cause every time I try to follow the trend, that’s when I got in the most, most trouble. But the more successful people I’ve dealt with who’ve gotten long-term staff all stayed within their own personal values from a company point of view, like around this table here, like even you, Mark, because I know you’re a nice guy. Um, it’s all about people. We want the right people around us and care about the people and, you know, corporations, the only people that’s important is the shareholders, right? So, in reality, along with Jeff, was saying it comes down to what’s important to the company. And my last comment is if you’re not in a happy place leave, there’s a lot of jobs out there Why stay there in misery and use that as an excuse to complain or entitle more.
MARK WRIGHT 34:56
Yeah. Shannon, I wanted to ask about your kids, because I’ve got a 19-year-old son in college and a 26-year-old son. The 26-year-old graduated, uh, from Gonzaga with a degree in sports, uh, management and digital marketing. And when he got out of college, he realized he didn’t really want to do that. And so, he started doing odd jobs on construction sites. And he started talking with some of the electricians on, on the, the job site and, and discovered that, that he wanted to do that. So now he’s in a five-year apprenticeship program to become an industrial electrician. And when he comes, when, when I talked to him, uh, you know, he just got married over the summer, but whenever I talked to him, He is, he just lights up. He’s like, oh my gosh, every day, dad, I’m learning. He works at a, they’re building a new Amazon tower in Bellevue. And he’s probably going to be on that job site for two years. But he said, he’s like, dad, this is so interesting. I’m learning stuff every day. And he can look at what he did at the end of the day. And I’d love to hear from you. What I’m trying to touch on is that how work feels is so important for this new generation, isn’t it?
SHANNON WALLER 36:00
It 100 percent is. And I, and I was laughing because, first of all, raise your hand if you took a left turn somewhere in your own educational career on your way to your, all of us did. Stop, starts, all the things, including my, my eldest daughter. And this is why I profile everyone and everything. We were talking about this before we hit record. Um, because if, if like your son undoubtedly is more tangibly oriented and a profile like Kolbe, K O L B E dot com. No, no financial affiliation, um, to, to Coach. We just love them because they do a great job, you know, because it’s so hard to figure out what you love to do. You can go through education, you can spend lots of money getting educated and you get there and you’re like, I don’t love it. In fact, I don’t even really like it. I don’t like the people I’m with. And so, for your son finding work. You know, a, for me, it was always like, with whom am I working? Cause, cause I needed to find my tribe. Took me a few years till I found Coach, but then I did love entrepreneurs, love entrepreneurial teams. Um, and then, but for other people, it’s like, what kind of work is most fulfilling for me? And I think, and I, and kind of to your point, we’re humans. We want this for ourselves. Why wouldn’t we want this for the people that work for us? Because we want this for our kids and they’re going to go work for somebody. Of course, we want this. And I think we have a lot more tools. We have a much broader mindset. Again, that’s what you were talking about, Jeff, in terms of stupid and evil. Which is a really fun way to I love that story. Thank you. It’s true. Um, thanks for speaking straight, but it’s, you know, the mindset’s super important, but then the mindset, it used to be, I’m, I’m, I have to fit myself into the preexisting box that was there. Now we live in a much more creative world, much, much more creative, right? And now we have to, there’s, there’s almost too much choice for some kids. And they’re like, they’re kind of frozen. Cause I don’t know what to do. Um, but I think finding work that they find fulfilling, meaningful, that they are happy about. My, my younger daughter’s, um, boyfriend is a mechanic and I love talking about, about cars. He’s just got fast-tracked into becoming a master mechanic. He’s 20 and he’s in program with 28-year-olds. Like it’s kind of a big deal. And he’s like, oh my gosh, I got to, I got to explain what a catalytic converter was to this mechanic who owns the shop because he didn’t know because he hasn’t seen it for 20 years. And he’s like, he’s telling me all this stuff. I understand about this much of it, let’s be clear. But he’s so excited. Same excitement, Mark, as your son. Every single day is learning more, every single day is having fun, and I love that. I mean, I want people to be very fulfilled, and frankly, we need more handy people in the world these days. So, I think it’s, I think there’s just so much more opportunity for people to contribute in ways that are meaningful for them, um, and to make a positive contribution than there are ever. Has before, because I think some of our blinders have been taking off. We want a higher quality for a lifestyle for ourselves. And why wouldn’t we want that for the people contributing to our value creation?
ANDRÉ BRISSON 38:54
Yeah, Shannon, I just want to modify one of your first statements there about the new generation is looking for fulfillment. I think everyone’s wanted that. I think everyone wanted that. It’s just, if it wasn’t the trend or we weren’t allowed and, you know, I think a lot of us been, we’re pursuing it. I think that’s probably a lot of the problems was the burnout.
SHANNON WALLER 39:13
Well, now it’s more possible. Before it was like a lot more constrained, like in the seventies.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 39:20
Oh, no, there’s none. Shut up and sit down and do what you’re told, right? And then another thing, like we’re like, I said, I was told I was changed my job five times because before I was raised by my parents. Get that into like for Ontario Hydro was a big power company and get in there 30 years and you’re taking care of her life. You should just do that. Don’t be an idiot. Don’t go away, but then you’re told at school five times. You’re going to change jobs into your career. But I think there’s a new trend that’s going to happen is we’re going to completely switch careers Like I’m 25 years engineering my lord. That’s a lot You know, it’s a lot of people gonna get tired of 25 years doing the same thing I think there’s gonna be career shifts at the 20, 25-year mark because you know what? I still have another even if you’re 50, 55, you still have another 20 years of value, right? So, there’s a whole different dynamic there where you can fulfill your passion or your, or your purpose is another important thing that as entrepreneurs or company owners is, what’s the purpose of every worker there? I don’t think if you, if you can tap in, I think Jeff’s done this very well, tap into people’s, well, I’m assuming because you’re doing very well, you’re tapping into people’s purposes as well that matches your purpose, and then they’ll do anything because they’re happy. As long as we’re happy, money doesn’t become a pro, uh, an issue for most people are having a good time and enjoying, feel appreciated. I think that’s what’s missed. No one’s feel appreciated.
JAMES BRYANT 40:42
Yeah. And André, what I would say, I’m a walking, uh, kind of billboard for what you talked about after a 20-year career in civil engineering and, you know, 15 of which working for the National Academy of Science, Engineering, and Medicine. Uh, I launched my own company, um, to pursue something totally different while I’m still helping people in that field, I’m doing something way different. So, I think that I’m a walking billboard for what you’re talking about and to hit back on some of the other points that were made earlier, it’s true that everybody wants to have fulfillment and meaningful work. I think, and I could be wrong, past generations didn’t see it as an option because they had to figure out how to make ends meet. And then for some generations, they weren’t aware of it being an option, right? It was elusive. And again, I think it, it may have evolved. We started to work, but we weren’t aware. The level of awareness in the expectation of work-life balance and being able to live a life that you love and do work that you love and enjoy it is here now. And I don’t think that expectation was or awareness was as wide in the past.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 41:56
Yeah, it’s like just to go on that like that’s why I coined a turn the last time I think we’re like people now are not appreciating as there is a difference between a cost of living versus cost of lifestyle. And they’re thinking the cost of lifestyle is actually cost of living. But there’s a difference.
SHANNON WALLER 42:14
Right. And Shannon here, just to jump in, I mean, post-World War II, it was about how to get a job and feed your family. Right. That was it. We’re, we’re now, we’re, we’re well past that. And now we actually have, I don’t want to call it the luxury, but now we have new abundance where other things are possible and other factors. We can take lifestyle. I just got to living. That’s a really good, good term, André, um, into account. And I think, I think that’s key. Now we can look for satisfaction at work. Before we could only look for satisfaction outside in our families or communities. Now we can include that with work. So, we’re living in a very, very different world than post-World War II.
MARK WRIGHT 42:55
Jeff, you said something that, that really is, uh, intriguing me and that is flow and we’ve talked, talked about this before and I think I’m having flashbacks because when I first started at a news radio station in, uh, in Spokane, I was making 5.50 an hour full time with a college degree. I couldn’t even support myself. I was living with my future in-laws in their basement and I went in to my boss, and I asked for a 0.25-an-hour raise. And he looked up over his glasses and said it’s not in the budget and then put his head back down and continued writing, and I was like, uh, okay. That’s the kind of environment that we all started in. Yeah, shut up sit down be afraid and fear was such a big driver especially in the broadcasting industry because they would have you know stacks and stacks of tapes of people who wanted your job and, and they let you know in in no uncertain terms that if you didn’t take what they were offering. They would find somebody to replace you. Talk about flow, because as you, as you talk about flow, I’m going to pan over. Flow is something that and I think all of us have something in our lives that we experienced that flow state and it’s pure joy. And it actually happens at work. As well. If you’re lucky. And so, yeah, talk about flow, Jeff.
JEFF KAAS 44:25
Well, I’m so glad that you brought up, uh, music, um, because I, I believe that as a, as a teaching tool, um, it’s such a great way for people to relate to it. So, um, so at a really high level, uh, I believe we’re created, uh, I know it’s controversial where we live, but created to create value. Garden of Eden. There was work there, there’s community with God, even if it’s a story and you know, not, not about God. Something about creating value, uh, has been recorded for quite a long time. When you play the drums, Mark, I know, I can, I can picture, uh, I wish they could measure your metabolism. At the moment you’re doing that because I believe fully that the science will show that your cells are being rebuilded that it’s, it’s nourishing to you. So, um, so from a perspective of, of manufacturing, it’s just a very easy way to look at stupid things because if you aren’t flowing one piece at a time. You’re going to be about 50 percent more expensive than other people. But when you start applying that to, hey, I was uniquely knitted in the womb to be Jeff. I’m really good at certain things. I’m really bad at other things. So, um, if you put me in a job that I’m really bad at, I am never going to feel flow. Um, so, so when I, when I hear you guys talking about the Kolbe and some of the others deals, Hey, know thyself so you know where to put yourself and then find people that are good at other stuff. Super simple. So, when I’m doing what I love to do, I’m never working. I’m goofing off the whole freaking time, but it’s not just for the business owner. It’s for everybody. And so, part of our responsibility is as leaders is to have a purpose and a system of tools that allow people to discover that about themselves so that they can flow as well. Um, it just turns out that having a process in a business that creates flow for stuff. It’s very attractive to businesspeople, but we normally stop there and don’t apply it to what does it look like in leadership? What does it look like in org design? What does it look like in the way we talk to customers, attract customers, serve our communities? So, everybody’s experienced flow. If they have a hobby and they’ve done it, they’ve all said, oh yeah, I know what it feels like. And the beauty of music is mathematically we can assess, Mark, whether you hit the notes, whether you hit the tempo, we can actually Mathematically proved that you’ve played it, but there’s something that is very weird to me, which I can’t explain is the joy that I feel when you play drums when you are in flow. It is contagious to me and almost everybody who’s watched a performance of flow, a musical performance, artistic performance, band kids marching around on a football stadium. They all will say, yeah, it was perfect. And when I asked him what happened to your body and they’re like, oh, my body freaked out. Can you explain that? No, so I guess what I’m getting at is, is the application of flow is really for me, everything, do you know yourself, are you in a job that can do that? Do you have friends who are good at other things now? It can be a team. What are we aiming at moving into the future? Uh, yeah. So, I don’t know if that’s what you’re looking for, but
ANDRÉ BRISSON 47:21
Yeah, perfectly said.
MARK WRIGHT 47:24
And I’d love Shannon to jump in here because a strategic coach is, is, you know, uh, an industry leader at finding your unique ability. I’m just starting through, uh, the book, uh, because, uh, I’m interviewing Shannon’s sister, Julia, uh, later in the year. and talking about unique ability. Shannon, you guys have, have really discovered that it, how important it is to know who you are and what you’re good at, right?
SHANNON WALLER 47:50
A hundred percent. And, and Jeff, when you said know thyself, I’m like, yes, cause that’s, that’s like one of my mottos. And my, pretty much my only personal rule is I trust people to the degree that I think they know themselves. If someone, if someone doesn’t know themselves. I can’t trust them. They probably shouldn’t trust themselves.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 48:10
You to do with them.
SHANNON WALLER 48:12
Right? And so, know that it’s, it’s, I, all my clients, all my, be it team leaders or, or 10X entrepreneurs, that’s, that’s the deal. So, I, and that’s why I know a ton of profiles because it’s a very fast way to get to know yourself. In, in a quantifiable way. Is it your whole? No, but at least it lends itself very, very interestingly. Um, and what I love about it, so uniquability, just to give you a simple definition. It’s what you love to do. So, it involves your passion, involves your heart. It’s not just your head. Um, it’s, it’s also what you’re skilled at. You have superior skill. You are better at it than most people and that’s not just your ego talking. This is other people like, oh my god, you’re amazing and you’re amazing and you love it. Your eyes light up, you lean in, right? Like that’s pretty epic right there. It’s also where you’re a hero to other people and you create value. Um, the other two characteristics is it gives you energy. Like you might be physically tired, but in every other way, your cells are all very happy. Limitless energy. And this is the little bit of a contradictory, or paradoxical part, I should say. Is that you, because you care about it so much, you can always see room to get better. And that’s where in our lovely culture we go, oh, if I can get better, I mustn’t be very good, eehhh wrong. Um, when you have superior skill, passion, it gives you energy and you can always room to get better. That’s our, one of our definitions.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 49:37
Refinement. I usually refer that to refining yourself and with your abilities. And the other thing too, just to add on to Shannon’s comment, this is André, um, the, the unique ability is not only in the career you’re in. You know, I got my unique, my unique abilities applicable to engineering. It’s also applicable to my, uh, podcasts. It’s even applicable to when I’m doing stuff with my kids or the hobbies that I do. So, it’s a transferable anywhere. It’s just an innate talent that you have wherever you need it. That’s where it shows up.
SHANNON WALLER 50:10
The other thing, and I think this is relevant kind of to changing careers a little bit, James, that you were talking about is what I find this with a lot with entrepreneurs. So, and, and what, what you used to say, I love coaching. I’ve been coaching. I was coaching business owners when I was 18 and new next to nothing, right? I’ve gotten substantially better at it in the last 40 years. Uh, however, it, but who your audience is. Who do you love to coach? And that’s what that, if people get bored with their careers, if they get tired, if there’s, it’s not brownout when you’re doing your excellent abilities, but it’s more, it’s not burnout. It’s brownout. You’re like been there, done that. I got 18 million T-shirts. I’m just done James. You may have felt this. And then you have to up your audience. You have to find people who are interesting and challenging and people whose problems you haven’t solved yet, right? That’s, that will keep you alert. So, the other, there’s what you’re doing, but then with whom is another aspect of unique ability. That’s incredibly important. Um, and, and, and who do you want to, you know, André knows this expression, who do you want to be a hero to, right? That’s, that’s the audience. It really is an audience thing for your unique ability. And when you can do that, you are one happy camper. Um, so I love coaching 10 X entrepreneurs, 10 X teams, 10 X team leaders. That is a hundred percent my audience. And when I’m doing it, none of my attention is on me. It’s always on them, which I think is one of the facets of, of flow for sure. And unique ability. Yeah. Now I do want to throw one thing. There’s another way. So, and this speaks to my Kolbe a little bit. So, if anyone’s familiar, three fact finder, two follow through, nine quick start, five implementer. So, I picked up a hobby during COVID because I didn’t want to be baking all the time. It’s my only domestic talent, and I don’t like dead limbs on my oak trees, so I picked up a battery-operated chainsaw. I also experience, I would call it flow, or at least if I’m not paying attention to that, it’s not tree limbs I’m cutting off, it’s my own, so I have to be careful, because it just requires complete and total focus, um, but it’s also joyful. I do it with a good friend of mine, and we have a blast, and she’s, she’s older, which is kind of fun. Two of us wrote their chainsaw, um, but, so there’s. But yeah, but I’m still, I’m still making a difference and it’s actually, we figured out one day it’s actually, I want to create a space that feels really good. And once I’ve done that, nothing else gets cut it. So, and I, and I like doing that with people. I do like doing that with our company. So even though in a strange way, it’s a different way of thinking about unique ability,
JEFF KAAS 52:42
I’m going to trim your limbs to be a better person.
SHANNON WALLER 52:45
There you go, done. I’m not chopping off any fingers though, Jeff, I promise.
JEFF KAAS 52:50
Just one a day. 150 hands, no problem. Actually, 300.
MARK WRIGHT 52:54
That is awesome. As someone who grew up on, uh, in a very rural setting, I completely relate to what you said, Shannon.
SHANNON WALLER 53:01
A hundred percent. It’s fun. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 53:04
You know, it’s, I’d love to, uh, I don’t want to wind things down because this is so amazing, but I think we, we have to start winding down and I, I want to just start this. Uh, James mentioned co-create and I think that’s probably the thing that hit me, uh, the hardest in, in this conversation. So, when we talk about entitlement versus advocacy, you know, um, we’re talking to those young employees who, who might have to get up the courage to go in and sit down with their boss and say, hey, I’ve got some ideas about what I think would make my experience here better. And I think it’s actually going to be good for the company too. And I just love, uh, just a little bit of, uh, you know, a statement from each of you. Uh, as we, as we part here, you know, just, just some basic good advice for both employees and employers, uh, as we, as we sew up this entitlement versus advocacy topic. So, James, why don’t you start out?
JAMES BRYANT 54:00
You know, as you say that, Mark, I think through very, something very similar to what Shannon just talked about in terms of knowing your audience. And so, for that employee, who’s going to talk to that business owner or that manager, understand what’s important to them. Just like you don’t want them to dismiss who you are and the values that you have. You can’t, you can’t do that to them either. So, you have to be able to take that into account when you’re approaching this conversation, and when you’re approaching that conversation, you approach it from a perspective of how can you generate value? How will this move? How will these, the responsibility or the project that you want to work on or the, the way that you want to move forward? How will it benefit you? But also how will it benefit the company? And how will it support the vision or the task or whatever that leader whom you’re talking to, what do they have to accomplish? And so, I know that’s a lot to consider, particularly if you are, um, younger coming in, but these are the, these are mistakes that I made when I was coming up and did not do that. And so, I’m giving you the advice. That I wish I would have had, or I wish I would have been aware enough to receive at that time.
MARK WRIGHT 55:23
That is so wise because I’m just flashing back to times where I did the same thing and, and it didn’t end up very well. Um, because I was just kind of blind to, to, to their position. Uh, André, how about you?
ANDRÉ BRISSON 55:37
I just want to, I gave my gold to my company in this. I want to be the dumbest person in the company. I want to bring smart people around so that they can do things. I got the vision, but I want to be the dumbest person in the company and at the same time I’ve always looked at it where what did I not like when I was growing up in the careers and I try to change that. But it was what was important to me. Like I don’t have people. I want them to only work 40 hours and we tell them right in the interview because I don’t want burnout. We need to rejuvenate. We need to have fun with friends and family, like stop working. I don’t want you to look at emails at night, but we communicate that. Cause I didn’t like that. I didn’t want to be owned. And when I’m home, let me be at home, even though I can’t entrepreneurial is a different story, but in the end, what’s important to you, like Jeff was saying before, what are your values, stick to them, not everyone is wired to be on your bus, so stop trying to get everyone on board, for me, I realize the hard way, there’s a certain type of people we need on our bus, and we weed them out, and there’s nothing wrong, everyone’s got a certain place, if you, if you’re working for a place that’s highly competitive, and they really want to screw each other, well, you know what? There’s a lot of people that like to work that way, let them go there, right? And then I’m not that way. So, but at the same time, our little entrepreneurial company, engineering company is not for every engineer, because we can, we make decisions, we make different decisions. And believe me or not, like engineering’s don’t like it um to make decisions that are outside the rules.
MARK WRIGHT 57:09
That’s really cool. Uh, Shannon, how about you?
SHANNON WALLER 57:12
Oh, I want to echo what both James and André said. Uh, instead of the entitlement mindset that we were talking about at the beginning, come in with a partner mindset. So, it’s like, so, one of my things about having a good entrepreneurial attitude for a team member is know, know what your strengths are, know yourself well enough to know what you can contribute, know what you won’t. I mean, I actually went into my very first job before Coach and they were trying to hire me for reception. I’m like, you don’t want me to do that. What 21-year-old says that? Nobody. Right? But I was cocky enough. Right? And they did hire me for the other job, which is how I met Strategic Coach, and the rest is history. But I knew myself well enough, and I was right, and I didn’t even have Kolbe back then. But I knew myself that that would be a disaster. And I don’t, I don’t mind failing forward, but I don’t like failing when I already know the answer. So, I think for that, for the team member to treat them, treat themselves well and respect and know your own talents, don’t be ignorant about yourself. Good Lord. That’s the one person you have domain over. Well, and, and figure yourself out, do all the profiles, do the things. It’s not a big investment, but maybe a better investment than some schooling. So, know yourself, but then to your point to James, know the environment and come in and say, oh, I want to create value for you. What are your, we call them dangerous opportunities and strengths. What are your goals? What’s your vision? How can I contribute? Who are you looking for? And what does success look like in this role? I think I can do this. I don’t think I can do that. I think I’m a right fit. I don’t think I’m a right fit. And they’ll be like, holy mackerel. All of a sudden you come in at a partner level instead of this little like pee on just wanting to say anything it is to get the job, like, don’t, don’t do that. The, the last kind of piece of advice, and this is one, you know, you give your kids advice and most of it doesn’t work. The one thing I think I, I did land on, at least in this world, used to be you just got to be good at one skill. These days I’m telling everyone who will listen, get good at three things. One is technology, the other is business, the third is your passion, and it’s kind of, it’s a Venn diagram, right? And those things, so my one daughter was design. Well, now she’s in professional communications and doing really, really well, but it’s like, when, when you can, people need to be multi-dimensional and good at those three, like their passion, whatever it is, but also technology and also business. I think with that you can, you can mix and match and combine, figure out who your audience is. And you’ll be off and running. So that would be my specific advice for someone entering the workforce, but also know yourself, be a partner, and take into account as we’ve been talking about the company that you’re looking for and find out what they’re about and see whether or not you’re right fit.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 59:57
I still think it’s applicable to the company owner as well.
SHANNON WALLER 1:00:02
I do too. 100%. Great. Jeff.
JEFF KAAS 01:00:07
Wow. Mark, she took your spot. That’s great. Uh, that is so great. Four podcasters in Jeff. This is quite a, sort of a good joke. Yeah. Wow. Uh, you know, I was thinking through it. I think all your advice is great. And it really comes down to context. So, I think I find in most places, I don’t have enough context to give advice, um, about that situation. What I can say is, uh, when I’m spending time with young people, it’s like, uh, you know, we’ll help them take, not Kolbe, because I don’t know about that one, but you know, help them take tests. Do you know what you’re good at? Do you know what you suck at? Like, so what, what can we do to help you become more capable? I think the more universal advice would be learn the laws of the universe and just start working and serving people wherever you’re at. Um, and then choose wisely. So, the organizations, the friendships, your, uh, service to community, uh, and the job that you’re, you’re at. If the company is all about growing you, you’ll know. Uh, and, um, you know, you’re young, so make changes, experiment. So, um, yeah, it’s a, it’s a hard question to ask because, um, those of us have been in a situation where you know the timing is wrong, but you know that I need another quarter an hour to make ends meet, right? So, there’s no budget there. Not, no amount of error expressed at that man was going to cause him to give you 50 cents an hour mark. So, there’s so much about timing on this would be like, yeah, don’t, don’t waste your time with those people, right? So, uh, yeah, so it would really be about self-development and choice, um, and, and getting more capable, um, and, um, there aren’t too many laws against serving other people better. So, you won’t find yourself if you are a servant, you never have somebody saying you’re too kind, you’re too loving, you’re, you’re, you’re filled too much grace. You’re learning too quickly, and nobody complains about that. So, I’m not sure if that’s useful, but,
SHANNON WALLER 01:01:57
Can I throw one last comment? Um, I was listening to a great podcast interview with Tim Ferriss and Arnold Schwarzenegger, whose new book is called Be Useful. Right. Which kind of sums up.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 01:02:08
Whatever you do, just be useful.
SHANNON WALLER 01:02:11
Which is Dan’s been saying that too, that’s his, his kind of motto, which is awesome. And, and then there’s one other thing, André, that you said it’s like really own and, and I don’t want to say protect, but. Be aware that there are boundaries around your company culture. There are some people who are the right fit for your organization, some who are not, and the more you keep that really strong, like I liked your coaching, Jeff, of your person, it means you will attract the right fit players, right? You’ll really attract the right people, and then you’ll be able to keep that, that culture that is so, so important to you, really, really strong.
MARK WRIGHT 01:02:45
Well, this has been just really, uh, satisfying. Um, and I wanted to just leave our listeners with something because I went for, you know, 35 years in television news, very formal, structured, corporate environment, a lot of, a lot of fear, uh, and I’m, I’m in this new environment, uh, created by my boss, Dan Rogers. And what’s been interesting is that I’ve actually, I’ve been living since January of this year, I’ve been living this new experience of an enlightened. company, an enlightened boss. And I’ll tell you, I mean, like when we had, we restructured, Dan restructured our, our time off policy. Uh, we call it oscillating time off or something like that. O-T, O-T-A, uh, and, and what’s interesting, I raised my hand. I’m like, do I, am I hearing you right? You’re shutting the company down for the last half of June and the last half of December, just to give us some time with our families and to recharge. And then you want us to take an additional four weeks off, uh, plus holidays and, and we’re working a four-day work week, and I was just like scratching my head and his only response was. Cause like, I’m, I’m still, you know, like I have PTSD for my life. Yeah. And I, and he said, I trust you guys. And I was like, holy shoot. And he said, you guys will figure out how to do this. And so, what I want to encourage employers and owners is that when you take that step to honor your employees. Like, I find myself sometimes, I’m a night owl, that’s, I’m a, I’m a, I’m a late pro, uh, prototype, or no, late prototype. Yeah. And so, I’ll be up here in my office at 10 o’clock at night, working, sometimes, because it feels good. And I’ll be logging an interview on Saturday. And, and I went to drum camp in Germany a few weeks ago, and, and I’m living this life that is absolutely, unbelievably enjoyable and fulfilling. And it happened because a guy believed in me. And, and.
SHANNON WALLER 01:04:54
It’s the opposite of the fear that you spent the last 35 years in. So that must be amazing, positive shock to your system.
MARK WRIGHT 01:05:02
Yes, absolutely. And you all are proof that when you take this approach to life and to living and to work, amazing things can happen. When you start to honor other human beings, so I just want to thank all of you. I love each of you. You guys do such amazing work in the world. And every time we come together, I learn something new. And I’m just, uh, I’m just like, oh my gosh. Wow. Just, just, just lesson after lesson after lesson. So, I hope we keep in touch. And I just want to thank you, each of you for your time and wisdom. And for what you, what you do to show up in the world. So, thank you.
MARK WRIGHT 01:05:41
I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. And if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING, where we are winning the game of work.
