Contributors Corner: Finding Your Why in Work with Dr. James Bryant, Jeff Kaas, & Dr. Stel Nikolakakis

Welcome to the August episode of Contributors Corner. This month, we explore “finding your why in work.”

We’d all like to think what we do for a living is somehow part of our calling in life, but sometimes we just don’t enjoy our work. We can feel stuck in dead-end jobs that are simply a means of putting food on the table and paying the bills.

So how do we make work our calling? Does it have to be our calling to be meaningful? These are some of the questions our panel addresses with host Mark Wright.

This month’s contributors are all past guests on the BEATS WORKING podcast – Dr. James Bryant, Jeff Kaas, and Dr. Stel Nikolakakis. Each person is redeeming work in their own way, making work better for everyone.

Dr. James Bryant has a doctorate in engineering. He’s a coach, consultant, and podcast host who teaches people how to win at work and at home. To Bryant, it’s what you do in your job that’s most important. “A person can have a menial job but not be a menial person,” he says. “So, we are not defined by our job position.”

Jeff Kaas owns an industrial furniture manufacturing plant near Seattle, WA. He transformed the operation after studying the Toyota Manufacturing Method in the 1990s. “If you don’t like your job, it doesn’t mean you’re in a bad job. You’re still creating value,” he says. “Do it with the utmost care, but if you’re not learning, it’s time to move on.”

Dr. Stel is a vision therapy specialist who helps diagnose and treat a range of disorders by examining how the eyes work. “Does work need to be your calling? I think the only calling you need to work on is you,” he says. “I think you need to be your calling.”

So – here’s to finding your calling in life and work.

Resources from the episode:

Listen to “How to Win at Work and at Home,” our episode with Dr. James Bryant, here.
Listen to “Growing Your Business by Growing Your People,” our episode with Jeff Kaas, here.
Listen to “Vision Therapy and Turning Personal Challenges into Your Calling,” our episode with Dr. Nik, here.
Connect with Dr. Bryant on LinkedIn and learn more about how he helps others solve the dilemma of work-life balance through his company, Engineer Your Success, here.
Connect with Jeff Kaas on LinkedIn, get to know more about Kaas Tailored on their website, and learn more about Jeff’s consulting company, Truth Bit Pull, and how they guide organizations through their own transformation into sustainable cultures of continuous improvement.
Connect with Dr. Nik on LinkedIn and learn more about Dr. Nik and the work he does here.

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Transcript

The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.

Speakers: Dr. James Bryant, Jeff Kaas, Dr. Stel Nikolakakis and Mark Wright

DR. JAMES BRYANT 00:01

A person can have a menial job, but not be a menial person. And so, we are not defined by our job position.

JEFF KAAS 00:11

What, what can you learn, uh, in your current role so that you’re becoming who you want to become? And it doesn’t mean you’re in a bad job. It means you’re in a job that you’re getting paid to do and you’re creating value. Do it with the utmost care. Um, move on, though. If, if you’re not still learning, then, then it’s time to move on. And, uh, I hope you’re not being paid well, because it’s hard to move on when you have a high-paying job.

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 00:33

Does work need to be your calling? Um, I think the only calling you need to work on is you. I think you need to be your calling.

MARK WRIGHT 00:45

This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work: the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to Contributors Corner for the month of August. This month we explore finding your why in work. You know, I think we’d all like to think what we do for a living is somehow part of our calling in life, but sometimes we just don’t enjoy our work. We can feel stuck in dead-end jobs that are simply a means of putting food on the table or paying the bills. So how do we make work our calling? Does it have to be our calling to be meaningful? Maybe more important, how do we use our unique talents in a way that honors who we are and makes a difference in the world? Our contributors this month are all past guests on the BEATS WORKING podcast, Dr. Stel Nikolakakis, Jeff Kaas, and Dr. James Bryant. Each is redeeming work in their own way. And when I say redeeming, they’re making work better in a way for everyone. So, Dr. Stel is a vision therapy specialist who helps diagnose and treat a range of disorders by examining how our eyes work or don’t work. He got into that line of work after discovering how vision therapy radically improved his son’s abilities. His son, Gabriel has cerebral palsy. Jeff Kaas owns an industrial furniture manufacturing plant near Seattle, Washington. He transformed the operation after studying the Toyota manufacturing method in the 1990s. His factory is a shining example of how a business can make developing and honoring people its top priority. Oh, and by the way, also make money at the same time. And Dr. James Bryant has a doctorate in engineering. He’s a coach, consultant, and podcast host who helps teach people how to win at work and at home at the same time. All right, let’s dig in and explore finding your why. Welcome to Contributors Corner. It’s great to have you guys here. We’ve got an esteemed panel of, I’m just going to call you guys experts at this point because, uh, you’ve been, uh, been around the block on the podcast and it’s so great to have you here. Um, we’ve got, uh, Dr. Stel Nikolakakis. We have Jeff Kaas. We have Dr. James Bryant. It’s great to have all you guys here. Thanks for, for joining us. Awesome. So finding your why in work is what we’re going to be talking about today. And one of the reasons I wanted to have all of you on the podcast is all of you are redeeming work in your own way and your path to get to this point in your lifetimes really is in my book an inspiration and I think a blueprint for um, the idea that I think that a lot of us want our work to be our calling, and sometimes it is and sometimes it’s not, but, but that journey and how we get there, I think, is going to be a super fun conversation. So, so let’s kick things off. My first question for you guys is I want to know, so you can also explain to the audience if they haven’t listened to your episodes on the BEATS WORKING podcast, what you do for work now and how you got here. Uh, so Dr. Nik, why don’t you start?

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 04:07

Well, that’s a great question. So, I’m, by profession, I’m an optometrist. Um, when people ask me, uh, my profession now is a NeuroVisual optometrist. I’ve always known, uh, that I wanted to help people, I just didn’t know to what degree and what profession it was. And I love sports, so I thought I was going to be a sports doctor, I thought I was going to be a chiropractor, sort of in that, in that realm. I was the only one in my family that wore glasses, so I was fortunate enough that I was the only one that would see the optometrist regularly. And, um, he always kept me interested, so anytime I’d go, he’d show me, you know, different tools, different things, how to see 3D. It was, it was just, it was fascinating for me, right? And at one point, I think it was in grade 10, and somebody asked me, so do you know what you want to be when you grow up? And I said, actually, I wouldn’t mind sitting in a dark room talking to people all day and get paid like my optometrist does. Looks like he’s having fun. Um, and I set the intention and, and that’s how it all started. I mean, how it all culminated to the point that I’m at right now is mind-blowing because I couldn’t even imagine. Um, but as I mentioned in the podcast too, like I help kids with learning disabilities now and, and concussion rehab and I work with high-level athletes. So, in a way, it’s exactly what I wanted even back then, even in terms of the sports, uh, which I couldn’t have even imagined. And now I have the capacity to help the younger generation and students to think differently in terms of what their why is, which I’m sure is going to come up in the, uh, in the conversation coming up. But that’s basically my story in a nutshell in terms of, uh, my, my professional career.

MARK WRIGHT 05:37

That’s awesome.

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 05:38

Thanks for having me on, on, on these calls. It’s been amazing. I love the podcast and I’m looking forward to this one too.

MARK WRIGHT 05:43

Well, I appreciate that. And I just want to encourage those of you listening, if you haven’t heard the original episodes with these guys, just really, really inspirational, uh, informative. Um, so James, take me through, um, I was, I was really interested when we spoke, uh, for the original, uh, episode of your, your career path. Um, you’re a, a coach and a consultant. You try to help people win at work and at home. And, uh, so what you do for work and how you got here.

DR. JAMES BRYANT 06:13

Yeah. What I do for work, I’m an executive coach and consultant. I focus on helping business owners and people with an engineering background design and live a life where they can win at work and at home. And, you know, I’ve been doing the coaching and consulting for a few years now. Prior to that, I am a professional engineer registered in the Commonwealth of Virginia, 20 plus years of work in the engineering field. And it just, you know, as I’ve developed in my career, I picked up different coaching skills, different management skills, different leadership skills. And I decided that it was time for me to kind of branch out and do something different. And if you listen to that podcast episode, you can hear a little bit more about my story, how I was one of those folks that had my plan. I was working on my plan, and this is what I was going to do. But life, as always happens, tends to kind of hit us upside the head to make us have these moments of transition or change. And the moment for me is kind of crystallized into three questions that, um, I asked myself were the three questions that changed my life. And those were, you know, do you want to win at work? Do you want to win at home? And the last one is the shortest one, but the one that is probably for me at that time was the most damning, which was, are you? And I couldn’t answer that. I could not answer definitively at that time that I was winning at work and at home. And so, I started on this journey of designing and living a life where I was able to do that. And what I found as I looked around me, there were lots of people that were doing great in their profession. And not necessarily at home. And there were some folks that were doing great at home, but they were struggling to get the promotion or the position themselves for that next leadership position. And I said, you know what? I can help because they’re struggling with the same thing that I was struggling with.

MARK WRIGHT 08:08

Yeah, that’s, it’s such wisdom there. Do you want to win at work? Do you want to win at home? Are you? It’s, it’s so profound. And it’s a little bit scary. I mean, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a question that, that really doesn’t have a neutral, uh, uh, outcome when you, uh, if you want to get honest with the truth. Awesome. Thanks for that, James. Jeff Kaas, tell people what you do for work and, uh, how you got, how you got here.

JEFF KAAS 08:33

Um, yeah, so it’s funny when you said, when I, when you asked the question, like, I kind of goof off all day. So, I know it’s called work, so, so, technically, uh, my wife and I own a factory that, uh, our intention is to grow people for a living. The tools we have available to us are making furniture, uh, airplane parts, and, and actually teaching people how, even if they aren’t in their official calling, how to work in a way that feels a little bit more like a hobby. So, uh, how I got here is just God’s grace, uh, so I just think, uh, there’s nothing that I can actually take credit for other than the stupid crap. Um, you know, there’s a couple couple yeah, I mean, honestly, so if I’m just really honest, like, uh, I was going to be honest.

MARK WRIGHT 09:14

Come on be honest Jeff.

JEFF KAAS 09:15

I am. I’m I get here? So many times, I walked to a room. It’s not just imposter syndrome. It’s straight up like I’m an imposter. I don’t belong. It’s okay. So, and I’m okay being an imposter. So anyhow. Yeah.

MARK WRIGHT 09:26

So yeah, you can just drop the syndrome.

JEFF KAAS 09:28

Just drop the syndrome. Yeah. Yeah.

DR. JAMES BRYANT 09:30

So, so Jeff, are you an imposter if you own it? If you own who you are, are you been in?

JEFF KAAS 09:36

That’s a good question. That’s a different podcast, but I think you’re onto something. That’s great. Yeah. Yeah. That’s hilarious. Yeah.

MARK WRIGHT 09:45

So the big question that I would love to dig into, I think there’s a big debate, and I don’t know where this came from, because I’m not smart enough to know the history of this, but I feel like in our society today, we feel like we’re not really doing enough if our work isn’t our calling, like we, we are somehow misaligned if what we do professionally isn’t aligned with our calling as a human being. And I’d love for you guys to just jump right into this and, and share some wisdom. Um, and I’d love to know your thoughts about the idea. Does work have to be our calling for it to be meaningful?

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 10:25

A lot. There are a lot of resources that I’ve been exposed to so far in my lifetime. And as James said, like, you know, life kind of hits you upside the head. And it’s those moments that, uh, allow all of us to discover something deep inside. Um, you know, I mentioned the hero’s journey in the past. I’ll say it again. It’s like, okay, we all have to go through something and then how we come back on that journey. Is, is the, the higher level or the, the, the calling part is, as you say. Um, you know, James, just so you know, I’m a coach as well and that part ended up showing up ’cause I was taking all these courses in order to learn how to effectively communicate on stage ’cause I taught at the university for 10 years and as I was standing up on stage the first time and continued to, I thought, okay, what would I have wanted to hear from somebody that had this wisdom and knowledge and what kind of a question, what kind of questions would I want to hear? And one of the big ones that came up, uh, was something I learned from a mentor that I took, uh, in a course in the U.S. And he said, if I were to give you a hundred million dollars, okay? I mean, I did this course a while ago, so now it’s like half a billion. Because 100 million is not as high and I say so you’re given a hundred or half a billion dollars but here’s a stipulation in order to keep the money you have to work so you have to do something what do you choose to do okay and that was the original question the very last class that I taught was in 2018 and I changed the question a little bit and I said how many of you would still do optometry? Okay, so the class of 94, how many do you think put up their hand? And I had rapport with them, so they were being honest with me. What percentage?

JEFF KAAS 12:24

Ten percent or less.

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 12:26

Three percent. And the interesting thing was, I mean, I was shocked to begin with, and then, you know, I was curious at this point, and I said to them, what would you do? And there was a girl in the front row, like, waving her hand. And so, I called on her. She goes, I’d be a Raptors dancer. So, I was already shocked with the percentage. And now, I mean, there’s only one answer that could have been worse than Raptors dancer and you guys know what it is. So, I don’t know. So, I’m standing on stage shocked now. I don’t even know where to go with this. Okay. So, then her colleague beside her, classmate beside her is waving his hand. So, then he wanted to be a National Geographic photographer. There was a lot of charity. A lot of travel of some sort, right? Finally, I get to the back corner and, uh, one of the students says I want to be a hairdresser. And I’m thinking, okay. Enlighten me a little bit here because I, I need, I, I I’m curious now. What is it about hairdressing? She goes, the impact that I make on people’s lives with my art. And I thought, huh. So then, her friend beside her was waving her hand, saying she did my wedding, I can attest to it, you have no idea how she made us feel, we can’t put it into words, yada, yada, yada. Okay? And then it hit me. And I’m an end guy, right? So, I said to the, the Raptors dancer, I said, um, I want to ask you something, but before I do, I want to tell you that I’ve always wanted to be a Maple Leaf, right? A hockey player. But I can’t skate. I still have in my mind that I will be the optometrist for the Leafs. There’s a space in my office. Beside the 1963 64 Stanley Cup puck that I wanted for the next puck, but now it’s going to be a Stanley Cup ring. And they need me because of what I know, and it’s in my vision. It’s actually, this is a true story. So, I said to her, I’m pretty sure that the Raptors Dance Pack doesn’t have an optometrist. You’re going to graduate, you’re going to call them, and you’re going to tell them that I’m going to be the optometrist for you guys, no charge. You can fly with them, you can dance with them, you can do whatever you want with them, and now you’re an optometrist, and you can be a Raptors dancer too. And the whole class lit up. So, within a 20, 30-minute conversation, 94% of them were good to go. Okay, so the thing I want to add is that we have something innate in us. Call it creative, call it whatever it is that we’re born with. Okay, it’s innate. And a lot of the tools that I’ve learned just tap into those innate tendencies to start understanding what is it that our purpose is that’s given to us. And how do we unfold that in order to be directed in an area of work? It doesn’t have to be specific but in an area. Okay, and then when you ask even a 14, 15-year-old that question They’ll tell you I want to help people or I want to learn or I want to create structure or or or or or and then it opens up the opportunities because conventional models are collapsing right now, right? So to say, I want to do X, Y, and Z, or I want to work 9 to 5, a lot of the younger demographic are saying, uh, no thanks. I want to be like Jeff, man. I want to do what he’s doing, inspiring people, different models, something that’s different, that doesn’t exist anymore, right? And once they see the construct and the concept, then it can direct them at a much younger age instead of going through, you know, again, for me, it, I loved what I do from the beginning. It’s just, it’s a much deeper love that I have as I move along, but I’m not typical, right? Some people have to learn and go through the trials and tribulations until they finally discover their calling. So anyways, I’ll start there and then, so I could talk forever.

MARK WRIGHT 15:51

That’s, that’s, that is so interesting that you had that conversation. So, these are, these are not slacker students. I mean, these are high-level college students.

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 15:59

Fourth, fourth, fourth-year optometry grads that were graduating two months after this talk. Okay, so it’s not, this is, these are professionals that are getting ready to go into the real world. It’s not a… You know, and it’s funny because Jeff’s like putting less than 10 right away, like he knows, right? That’s the reality. If you ask the right questions, you get the answers that are real, not what you think. But that’s, that’s actually the reality of the younger demographic right now. And once we realize that they’re the change in the world, you know how to inspire them. And I’m curious to see what Jeff said in terms of, um, how, how he, you know, inspires people, even though he’s in furniture and airplanes.

MARK WRIGHT 16:35

Yeah, reaction from you other guys.

JEFF KAAS 16:40

Well, I love the way you ask the question. I love that you’re able to have a relationship with them and that they’d be honest. Because 10 would be, I’d be shocked if you said above 10. Um, so, uh, that doesn’t surprise me about you having a little bit of time with you. Um, and that you’re able to show them there is a way to do the optometry stuff and connect into some of these other things you have passion for. So that, that, that’s amazing. Yeah. So. My first reaction is, yeah, go. Heck yeah. Um, but also there’s this question of, wow, we have spent four years or all this time to become a professional that’s going to help people see like, oh my goodness, what a gift site. And, and there’s something about their experience up in that moment where 90% of them, 95% of them were like, yeah, not for me. Um, boy, there’s something wrong with that because I can’t think of, you know, uh, you know, when Jesus came to the earth, he’s helping people see, um, and not just physical sight, but spiritual sight. This gift of sight is like top 10 on the world, like I want to be able to see, um, so it’s shocking to me that even in something you would think would be a worldly calling of you get to help people see. You’d have so many people going on. I’m not sure I’d do it. So, it’s a little bit of sadness. I think it was the other reaction. Yeah, sure.

DR. JAMES BRYANT 18:00

Jeff, that seems like people, we can think of things as the gift of sight. They’re looking at it as a job or profession, not a mission or a gift, just something that they, that they’re going to do. And when you can take a step back and think about the impact that you’re going to have, like the hairdresser said, the impact that she has on lives that’s the key thing that begins to unlock the passion that begins to allow you to get a peek into the mission that you may be on. And so, you asked the question, you know, Mark, can you, you know, have, can you, can your job not be your passion and still be meaningful? I think it can. I think it, I think it absolutely can, because there are people that are going to be listening here that may not necessarily like their job, they may have to actually work to make certain investments. They may be working for their family. They may be working to create a better life. So they’re not working for their job. They’re working for their vision. And so, some of the issue is when people lose sight of that vision, or they don’t have that vision. That’s where you run into issues, because when you’re working at a job that you’re not passionate about, it’s going to beat you down. And if you don’t have that vision that’s moving you forward, it continues to demoralize you and you find yourself in a really tough situation.

MARK WRIGHT 19:25

Yeah, and when we lose sight of the fact that, I don’t know if it was in your episode, James, but, you know, when we look at what work is and what work does, work is simply human beings working collectively to solve each other’s problems. Like, I don’t know anything about the eyes, but Dr. Nik does. I don’t know how to build furniture, but Jeff does. I don’t know how to build bridges, James does. And it’s like, when, when we, and I think you just nailed it, James, when you said, when we lose sight of the value. I mean, we could be even standing in line at the DMV to get our license renewed. That person is helping me, and I need my license to drive. And I love when I run into people with quote-unquote menial jobs, and I think we’ve all had menial jobs in our lifetimes. But when I see someone at a job that maybe society says isn’t that important, when I see that person with a smile on their face, and with a helpful attitude and a can-do attitude. It just it just brightens my day because it’s like we’ve got we’ve got a choice, right? We can do the job and just have a sourpuss look on our face and be like, man, I can’t wait to get out of this job and get a real job that I love, or you can say, man, this is where I am right now, and I’m gonna make the best of it. I’m gonna try to help people. Um, man, this is so cool to get into this aspect of it. Somebody touched on. I think So, um. Still you. You touched on what I think we call our unique contribution, and I think a bunch of different coaching programs all touch on that. Can you can you touch on that as as that relates to our conversation?

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 21:06

Yeah, 100%. It’s timely, actually, because, uh, I’m a student at strategic coach. As you know, that’s how I know Dan. And, um, one of the concepts that they have is called unique ability. And, um, it’s a humbling experience because the process is to send out an email or at least ten emails to people that you, you love and respect and you ask them, what makes me unique? Like, I want an honest opinion from somebody that I trust and respect, what makes me unique? Um, and everybody says pretty well the same thing. And you know, it was one point, it was overwhelming, and I’m not used to receiving. I’m a good giver, but receiving is a hard time. I have a hard time with, but here I’m at the airport. I’m, I’m crying. Like, I’m literally getting emotional to what people are writing. And, uh, I did a two-day process with, uh, her name’s Julia Waller. She’s un freaking believable. And she took what everybody was saying and compartmentalized it into ten or nine, um, segments, right? So, so, she puts it on a whiteboard and I’m sitting in a room with her, and she says, okay, so they’re saying you tap into people’s heart and souls. How do you do that? And I’m like, what do you mean? How do, I don’t know. I just, I’m me and like, okay, but how do you do that ? Um, I, I, I, I don’t know. It’s just, just me because it’s natural, right? And then we assume that it’s natural for me. It’s not a big deal and we bypass it, not realizing that’s an, it’s an element of, of not being the imposter, right? There’s the of understanding self. Um, anyways, it was two days of that, which was a powerful, powerful tool because I came out with a conscious realization of what my actual unique ability is, that’s what I actually do. Okay? And it was, you know, there was nine parts to it in terms of my unique habits. The top five, um, I kinda knew, but I didn’t exactly know how. But six to nine were massively unconscious and to be honest with you scared the crap out of me because that’s how I could deeply connect with people. Um, but once I became conscious of it, it makes sense with everything that I’m doing in terms of the deeper work, right? But, you know, you can hear people say, yeah, yeah, I’m living my passion. I’m living my purpose. I’m, I’m in a job with purpose and passion. Listen, it comes with trials and tribulations. It’s not just, hey, I’m here, right? And it’s, it’s these deeper understanding of self and having people around you that you can be vulnerable and open and authentic and understanding because you have to be all those things to ask for help at that level and to receive it. Um, but that was, that’s just one concept of many that we learned at strategic coaching and other coaching programs, which James, you’re smiling. I’m sure you use certain tools to tap into somebody’s why and purpose and who they are. Um, cuz that’s how it starts. You have to understand self first. Okay, it’s really easy to help other people and understand and see other people. It’s really hard when you have to put a mirror in front of you and go, alright, here’s the truth. And it’s actually the really good things that are scarier than the bad things sometimes, right? But the more you understand yourself, the more you understand how is it that I can relate to other people, other things, other situations, and so on and so forth. One comment I do want to add in terms of, Again, you have to have this purposeful job. How do you define a purposeful job? If it’s coming from within, you put the purpose onto the job, right? So, an example is, you know, at the airport, I have a Nexus Pass, so I’m pretty well going through the same lineup every single time and there’s always this one woman. That’s doing security. Okay? And organizing everybody. And she’s just all over the place. Honey, give me a laugh. Smile for me. You’re way too serious this morning. We have to have a good time. Here we go. And the whole place is just like excited to see her because she makes everybody’s day, right? Another example is we had a crossing guard just down the street from my office. And she’s been doing it for many, many, many years. And because of corporate stuff. Anyway, she decided I’m done. And she retired. And she was telling me the story of how many people came up to her to tell her how much she impacted their life. When they were in public school, and who they are now, and the impact that, and she’s bawling. But here’s now somebody, forget about the label of crossing guard, that’s actually used her unique ability, which is to help and impact other people, being a crossing guard. Okay, so it’s not the label, it’s, it’s, it’s the concept of who am I, what was I born to do, where’s my passion, where’s, and cultivating that, because that’s the only choice you have, is to look inside. Who am I?

MARK WRIGHT 25:48

So, James, you, you, I’m not gonna, I’m not a math guy, so I could never be an engineer, but engineering by sort of definition is not a sexy, glamorous, glamorous occupation. You guys build stuff, and there’s a lot of math involved. But when you, when you hear Stel talk about, you know, your unique abilities, you took something that was really kind of complicated, and maybe dry by a lot of people’s definitions, but you took that vocation, and now you’re inspiring people to, to be the best version of themselves. So, I guess what I’m hearing is that the job isn’t so important, it’s what you do with it, right?

DR. JAMES BRYANT 26:31

Yeah, it’s what you do with it. Uh, two, two comments. One, a person can have a menial job, but not be a menial person. And so, we are not defined by our job position. And so, when, when you’re thinking about those people that were about to become optometrists, they’re not defined by being an optometrist. They’re defined by their dreams and who they are. And what they’re going to pursue and what they put into that position into their work. Um, I do a, a similar process with my clients called mirror moments where you see yourself for who you are, not who you project to be. Because there are a lot of times that we’re projecting to be something that we’re not either positive or negative. Sometimes we’re projecting ourselves to be, um, more, um, you know, like more of a go-getter than what we are. And sometimes we don’t give ourself credit for the things that we’re doing. The, the beauty of it is growing in that level of self-awareness and being able to understand and see yourself for who you are, not for judgment’s sake. It’s not so that you can judge yourself. It’s so that you can take ownership of who you are and continue to build off that to who you want to be and where you want to go, because if you don’t take ownership of it, you can never grab it. You can’t build on it. You can’t do anything with it. Um, and every time you go to do something, something else happens, whether subconscious or something happens. It just goes through your hands because you’re not taking ownership of it.

MARK WRIGHT 28:00

Wow. That’s, I’m thinking about, about you, Jeff, right now. And I’m thinking when, you know, if you did an inventory, maybe you have about what your unique abilities are. I think so often, you know, we’re at a, we’re at a party or something and people say, oh, what do you do for a living? And then we tell them what we do. But, um, instead of like, who are you as a human being? And, and, you know, if I asked you, Jeff, what your unique ability is, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t say it’s building furniture. Even though you’re, you’re one of the best companies anywhere.

JEFF KAAS 28:34

My, my team would definitely have an opinion about that. Yeah. That would not be it.

MARK WRIGHT 28:40

But so, take, you take me through that, Jeff. I mean, you know, your unique ability is growing human beings, right? Or at least one of them.

JEFF KAAS 28:50

Yeah, so I think it’s interesting. The, the, the, the prompt for the day I think was, uh, making work or calling. And I just, I’m like, okay, calling, who’s calling? Because I mean, I’m just the person answering the call. Our vocation, it’s our answer, right? So, to me, it’s like, well, who’s calling? And what did that thing person have in mind when he called me so, uh, so I have a worldview, it’s, it’s weird, especially in the, in the island of Seattle or whatever, but you know, God might’ve created me, and he might’ve had something in mind when he did it. So, this idea of not using my gifting, uh, my wiring for loving other people, um, to me is kind of the definition of missing the mark. Uh, so, so what I love to do, I love to teach, I love to watch people grow. That’s, that’s like, uh, I think a gardener just watching things grow. And human beings is for sure that thing and, uh, building furniture, uh, building airplane parts, it all fits into that, that model. But, um, for sure, if somebody says, hey, what do you do for a living? I really want to help people become, uh, become, uh, and to me, it really does start with the mirror or the strategic coach of like, okay. However, you got here, whether you believe in a God that wired you and actually knitted you in the womb, like the Bible says, and prepared all the work ahead of time for you to do, like, you can have that worldview, or you could just be evolving out of whatever, a pile of stuff. I think we can all admit that we have some skill sets that are just unique to us, different than the neighbor. So, to me, discovering what our gifts are, our unique abilities are, is the first starting point. And when I spend time with young people, it’s like, find what you suck at and ditch it. And, and keep learning what you hate, and find a friend who loves that. And if there’s something that’s crippling morally, whatever, of course we have to deal with that. But, uh, to me it’s this, uh, speed dating of all the things you suck at, so that you can become a broadcaster who’s trusted by millions, and, and we can hear your voice, Mark, right? You know, so really your story of just like, oh, I want to do that, I’m going to do that. Um, so yeah, so for me it’s just really, it’s an active conversation about, okay, if we really are here to serve others, and if work is really good, kind of gardening and stuff, then are we doing it? And then the what is not as interesting to me as the why and the how. So, I think I could do any work where I’m growing people, loving people. I used to clean toilets. In fact, I still do. That work can be absolutely redeemed if I’m doing it to serve the next person in the bathroom, which is sort of super nasty. Go ahead, Tamar. You’ll eat that out. This is a chop.

MARK WRIGHT 31:28

So, Tamar editor. I’m pretty sure Jeff. She’s going to leave that in.

JEFF KAAS 31:32

Oh, come on. Help me out. Mind bubbles. Anyways, I don’t know if I covered it, but just I think it’s, it’s the what is interesting for our knitting. Do, do what you’ve been made to do. Um, but the why and how is where I think all of us can contribute to society by being connected to our why and then how we show up for whatever assignment we have. Yeah.

MARK WRIGHT 31:54

So, Jeff, as you’ve mentored people over the years, I’m guessing that you’ve had conversations where people are frustrated by, I’m not doing the job that I really want to do, and I want to get over there. And I’m just kind of, just, you know, so what’s been your advice to those people that say, maybe you don’t have your dream job now, but treat this job as if it is your dream job, or what’s the advice that you’ve given, Jeff?

JEFF KAAS 32:19

Yeah, so I don’t, I try not to give advice on that because I don’t think I’m qualified like, like the other guests might be to do that. What I do think is whatever job you’re doing, um, in, in my world view is I’m either creating value or I’m creating waste. So, my main focus is really discovering, okay, what is your knitting? What are you great at? Where can you create value? Of course, if the current assignment isn’t great for that, you can, you can worry about that, or you could just remove waste. So, you have more time to do the things you’re really great at. So almost all of my conversations are in the context of, hey, what are we trying to achieve in the, in the role that you have in life or who are you becoming? If it’s more of a personal thing and what are the things that are in your life that are preventing you from doing more of that? Um, I, I’m not really the person who says, uh, you know, you’re calling someplace else unless it’s in my face. So today I’ve been working with a young woman in Holland every day for about a year and she just shared with me. I realized I want to be a board member of a hospital. I’m like, okay, that is awesome because I have assumed that you’re going to be a board member and now we’re both on the same page, but it is going to change the trajectory of our coaching going forward because now the preparatory work for becoming a board member in a Dutch hospital is very different than being a manager. So, so I actually don’t do counseling to say, hey, you should go someplace else. I will say if you work in a place where the leader doesn’t value your value-creating process and they create waste for you, you have to decide whether you want to sign up for that. One thing I also like to add, Mark, I think you have a gem in this, which is you said if we lose sight of the value of what we’re doing for human beings, I think so much of this is related to the fact that we exchange dollars for loving people. So the, the value we place on helping somebody see, because there’s a dollar involved, we can be trapped in the idea that it’s, it’s about money. Um, I think that’s part of the, the, I think you should explore that further is, is, is what is the value? Why do we do it? Does the way we count money or the way we, we value parenting, all these decisions that you guys have made in your lives. I think it has something to do with the fact that we are usually using money to decide where that’s valuable. You know, when James decided, hey, my marriage matters to me. That promotion, I have terms for that. Um, I, I, I, I, I really want to do that work. But I value, um, the parenting role that I have. The relationship I have with my maker and my bride. Okay, that doesn’t show up on a money thing, right? So, I, I do believe when we lose sight, I think it’s, it’s not even just lose sight is that the minute money gets involved with this discussion, I think that’s when we start to deviate from, uh, really making our work feel like a calling, answering the call maybe. So anyways, you can cut that too Tamar. Just chop, chop.

MARK WRIGHT 35:16

It’s all staying in Jeff. I love it. I love it. Stel, any thoughts after, after what you’ve heard?

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 35:23

You want to say how many thoughts after what I heard? Um, um, you know, there’s a couple of things that came up, Jeff, as you were saying, you know, sight and vision.This is, you know, in terms of now when people ask me, what do I do, I say, I change lives through vision, and they don’t quite understand what that is until they’ve gone through a process with me. And one of the things that I do with my whole team, um, is from the day that they get interviewed, I asked them one question.And I say, if we’re a year from now, what is it that you’re happy and excited about that’s happened already? Okay, a strategic coach calls it the r factor question. I’ve adjusted it a little bit, but I mean, that’s where I got it from. And, um, they’re expecting, you know, they’re coming into the interview thinking, okay, he’s going to tell me what are my strengths, what are my weaknesses, you know, the typical stuff that they want you to hear.And, um, it throws them off because then it’s one of the first times that they’ve been heard. And I’ve, I’ve used it because I like modeling success. And this is what Lululemon actually does with all of their team members. And they set a dream board for them. Because when you ask them in all areas in life, and you talk about family, and career, and money’s thrown in there too, and friendships, and health, and you know, there’s this whole wheel.It gets them thinking because they’re thinking, well I’m just applying to be a receptionist at an optometrist’s office. It’s like, yeah, that’s not what I’m looking for. And, and what they actually come up with starts to create a list of what they put on their vision board when they start working here.Now, when you go to Lululemon, I don’t know where they have it now, but in the back, and it’s part of their training process when they get hired in the first two months. But their goals and dreams are actually in the back. Um, and at one point they actually had them on their change rooms. But it’s their name and their goals and dreams.Because now, their, their, um, whatever money that they make or commissions. It’s not attached because they have to do it at the end of the day, it’s attached because it’s going to be put towards their dream. And it’s either going to university, or you know, going skiing, or some trip, or usually the pretty profound things like, you know, some charity.But everybody’s involved because everybody knows what each other’s dream is. So, they’re doing it in the context of the office, but all those are moving in the direction of what their dream board is. Now some patients ask me, they go, geez, you have a high turnaround, like where’s all your team? And I said, no, the core team is still here.Well, what happened to so and so? What happened to so and so? Well, one’s in law school now, one went into optometry school. Uh, another one was going into teacher’s college in September. And I went, and I rhymed it off, right? And they’re like, holy jumping, but aren’t you upset that they’re leaving you? And I said, no, because when I have them, I have 110% of them.So, I’d rather have them 110% for a short period of time than 10% over a long period of time. So, vision for me, and James mentioned it too, like creating a vision for somebody to see something that they may not be able to see is to me one point of magic. The second thing is for you, for the person to understand their values.Okay, because I know what my values run on within my organization and what’s important to me. If they don’t have those values, it’s not that I have anything against them, but I don’t want to push someone in a direction that I need to change them, or they perceive that they need to be changed. They’re coming in with value systems that are in alignment with mine, and they have goals that are important to them.Now we have synchronicities that allow everything to be a win-win situation. So, those are the two of the big things, um, I mean I could go on and on. The vision piece is huge and the other thing I’m going to say is most people don’t have clarity in vision because it’s not a tangible thing, right? So, you say, what’s eyesight?Yeah, 20 20, here’s your prescription, off you go. Sight and vision are two different things and we talked about it in the podcast. Vision is something that happens in your neurology. Okay? So, what you set in your mind is what your eyes or your brain is looking for through the eyes and through the ears.But if you haven’t set a vision of the future, all you’re seeing is now, and the state that you’re in is going to dictate what you’re going to see. So, if I’m upset, I find a whole bunch of other people that are upset, and I wonder why things aren’t changing. So, the environment, and being grateful, and being positive, and being around other people that are in the same mindset, has a big impact on how you are in your space, regardless of what you want to call it, what profession you want to be in.So anyways, I’ll stop there because what you get me going. Oh, one more thing. One more thing. Okay, so passion. Okay, it’s it’s a you know, it’s a big thing for me and so I mentioned before one of my mentors asked the question if you had all this money, what would you do? And the other thing that he said is 95% of the respondents when you ask them that question. 95 okay, so if you think about the question if I asked you guys when you were even now like, you know, what would you do with all this money?95% of the respondents will do and say something in terms of growth and contributions. Okay, and that’s what, that’s what the formula for passion is. Passion equals growth plus contributions. So, the second you ask that question, you start tapping into, so what’s important to me? What is it that’s growing me to grow other people?What is it that’s important to me in order to contribute? Where is this contribution coming from? Most of the time it’s your story or somebody else’s story that’s compelling to yours. But usually, it’s yours. Okay, but as soon as you start, you know, running into that area of understanding unique ability, understanding your story, the power of your story, owning it.Okay, your value systems, what your vision of the future looks like. Now you have movement, and you could be successful in anything that you do.

MARK WRIGHT 41:12

Wow, this is, uh, this is really good stuff, and I, I just want to, as you guys were all talking, and when Jeff was talking about money, when money gets into the equation, I think that, uh, you know, as we’re thinking about our unique abilities, sometimes, like I know people whose unique ability is to brighten the day of other people.And, uh, a friend of mine just passed away. He was, used to be the, the president of King Broadcasting in Seattle. Not at the time that I worked there, but he was a dear friend in the Rotary Club of Seattle. And I knew him for probably 20 years. Eric Bremner is his name. And, uh, he was, battled cancer for the last couple of years, and, uh, his son sent out an email and said, I think, I think the end’s getting here.I’m, whew.And, uh, oh, man. And he said, uh, the end’s near and, uh, my dad would love to hear from you, all of you. And so, I sent an email. And I just thanked him that he knew the challenges that I was facing. Because broadcasting can be a really crappy industry. It can be really beautiful at times too. But he knew when I was struggling.And he would, he would come up and put his hand on my shoulder and he would, give me a kind word and a smile and give me advice. And, uh, it just, it just made my life better. And, uh, so I, I wrote this email and, and his son read it to him, and he said his dad was just overwhelmed, uh, at the outpouring. And I don’t know if, I don’t know if Eric knew that at the time, but just those kind words at the right time were an amazing gift to me.And, uh, And I’m glad that he got to hear that before he passed away. And so, it just, it just makes me think that, yeah, it’s, it’s not about money. It’s not about a job. It’s just about who you are and how you show up in the world. And what are you doing on a daily basis? And most of this stuff, by the way, doesn’t take money, does it?But, uh, yeah, I mean, that’s what it’s about, right? Taking those opportunities, job or not, career or not, to make the other people’s lives just a little bit better.

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 43:33

So, Mark, thanks for sharing because it just another, um, exercise that, that, so, Keith Cunningham is the one that I’m speaking on. Um, with regards to all these tools that I’m mentioning.And he was, uh, in Robert Kiyosaki’s book, Rich Dad Poor Dad. Uh, Kiyosaki took three people to, to basically create Rich Dad as a character. And he was one of them. Keith Cunningham was one of them. And, uh, when I took his, his mentorship course, one of the things that he made us do is, uh, write a eulogy. Our own.Okay, and it was, phew. But the other thing that he did is we had to hand it in. So, we wrote it. And so, we had to hand it in. So, we handed it in. And then when the course was over, um, you know, we had all these to-dos and, you know, what changed and how we’re going to apply it, yadda, yadda, yadda. So, as a surprise, three months later, he mailed the eulogy to us and said, are you living with your purpose and your promise?Okay, so it was, right? It just came to me because it’s like, you know, you live as, not that you should think this way, but it’s imagine if it’s your last. What is it that you need to do and how do you need to be? Um, and it was the same feeling I had when I asked for all these letters to come back. It’s, it’s overwhelming.Um, but it was, it was a life lesson that, you know, started to set, set the stage for me to say, okay, what’s important? Like, what’s really, really important? You know, and in terms of the money piece that, you know, Jeff brought up, um, you know, I learned so much from the younger demographic because I listen and I try to understand, and it’s amazing how many of them say, okay, you might want to bleep this out, but we don’t give a shit about money.And I’m like, what do you mean? It is like, we really don’t care. Like it’s, it, it means nothing to us. And I had a, a, a talk with a 22-year-old leader, uh, many years ago, and when I was really curious, I said, can I take out for dinner, man, have some questions because I don’t understand you guys. He goes, sure.So it was a three-hour conversation with this guy, which in on itself with no technology, right? Like in on itself is pretty amazing. And I started asking him questions and I said, what one of the main ones was What do you think the strength is of your demographic? And he goes, well, nobody’s ever asked me that before and we listed to do we went through it and then I hired I hierarchy the top three. Okay, so this was age group of 18 to 30 And to this day, it’s been bang on with everyone that I ask in that, that age category.And, uh, we, we got the top three. Okay, so think about what you think the top three strengths would be for the demographic, that younger demographic between 18 and 30. Okay, now, I thought I had number one nailed because I’m thinking, okay, social network, social, you know, uh, technology, that type of thing. That was number three.Okay, what do you guys think number two was? Energy. A lot of it. A lot, right? Energy is their number two strength and it’s either getting suppressed or expressed in ways that’s not supportive because they’re trying to figure out number one. Okay, you ready for this one? Be a part of a movement against the status quo to make an impact or make a difference in the world.They all agree when you say and they go, uh huh, right? So, you know if you think and the reason why I love talking entrepreneurs you know or people that are misfits or perceived misfits in society or doing things that are different say, okay James, you’re an engineer you’re doing coaching, what the hell it’s different right because most people gonna do engineering continue doing engineering It, but when you listen to the story, it’s usually because it’s against the status quo.It’s making an impact in the world, right? And it’s, you know, it’s, it is different. It’s, it’s, and it’s you, you listen to what people say. There’s a meaningful component to it. There’s something meaningful about it that you can’t explain. They ha it has to get expressed and you listen from other people with, in terms of what they’re saying, right? So, um, you know, and then you, you end up talking to certain people. They’re like, you know what, when it’s my last breath, man, I’m going to have a freaking party. It’s like, I’m done checking out of here. Woo. I’ve done what I needed to. Off I go. And it’s exciting, right? It’s just total reframe. Anyways, those are my, a couple of my million thoughts going through my head right now.

MARK WRIGHT 48:24

That’s great. Um, before we start to wrap things up, anybody want to throw anything out? Reactions before I pose a final question. James anything?

DR. JAMES BRYANT 48:35

Nothing really comes to mind. I’m just really soaking all of the different pieces and the parts of the conversation and thank you for sharing about your experience. It really does show the value of investing in the relationships around us and just having that whole attitude of how can I add value? As Jeff said, how can I add value to any and every situation that I face? And when you see somebody who may be struggling or see somebody who wants the promotion but is not getting it or wants to do something different and is not getting it, say a kind word. Be there for them to encourage them. You’re not necessarily counseling them, but you are trying to kind of bring a ray of sunshine on their day, right? And if anybody’s listening and they find themselves in that position where you want to do something different or you want to grow, but you feel like you’re stuck, make sure you take ownership of your situation and learn where you are because things that you can begin to put into place in terms of your values, in terms of your habits, those things you can build on to help better prepare you for the future that you want. A lot of times we think about the future that we want, but not about the person that we need to be. In order to get there, but to stay there and to grow from there, and there are things that you may need to do right now to better prepare you for that position. But if you’re stuck in the now thinking about how bad the situation is, how you’re not able to grow, how unfair it is, then you are not going to grow. You need to create that vision of what it is you want.

MARK WRIGHT 50:20

Awesome. Jeff, any, anything before I pose my, my final question then?

JEFF KAAS 50:27

Uh, there’s a lot going on in my head. So yeah, I appreciate this conversation a lot. Um, yeah, where my brain was just at was just thinking through, um, what we call work. So just, just, uh, just the, just the word work. You guys have said, hey, we’re redeeming work. So, uh, just the, uh, I was thinking through work. The first worker, at least in the Bible, was God. The second worker was the human beings in the Garden of Eden. And I’m thinking, okay, the weeds in the garden. Lord, okay, I get it. So anyways, yeah, nothing to add other than, yeah, I appreciate the conversation. Yeah, yeah.

DR. JAMES BRYANT 51:03

But Jeff, I think you make a very valid point. Is that the, the garden takes work, right? Work takes work. Success takes work. And you’re, you’re, there are going to be times when you’re moving through your career or your path and they’re going to be weeds there and you may have to tend the garden and remove the weeds and figure some things out in order to cultivate the life that you want to cultivate the dream that you want.

JAMES BRYANT 51:31

Yeah, certainly. But in the garden of Eden, it’s supposed to be like pretty awesome, right? So, work the, the, the, the, the hustle in the garden is in relationship with the other human and your maker. So, it’s this idea that we call work, like when I say, oh, I’m working, it’s like, oh, I’m sweating or I’m toiling. I think I want to redeem the toil and restore work to being that thing, which is hobby. Like when I never hear anybody complain about their hobby and say, oh, I worked on my ski. I worked in my turning or my sailing. Like they’re, they’re, they’re hobbying. I don’t know. Yeah. So just, uh, there’s something in my brain right now where I’m, uh, stuck, which is, I think I have the wrong word in my head because if God is good, and even if the Bible is just a nice story that isn’t a real God thing, it’d be pretty, pretty bad news for everybody who believes it. But, um, but he’s, he’s God. He’s good. He’s only good. So, work! The way we even use that word, we’re like dragging it through the mud unnecessarily. That’s where my head was. Tamar is going to cut everything I said, the whole dang thing. Tamar, please leave in the nice, uh, conversation about Eric, though.

DR. JAMES BRYANT 52:39

Yeah, but I think part of that is the perception. That work is bad, or work is evil, or work is, or work is not hard from the standpoint of requires effort, but hard like drudgery, I don’t want to do it. And it doesn’t have to be that way. Work requires effort. I will say it requires effort, but the attitude that you have where you’re giving that effort will determine whether or not it is quote-unquote hard.

JEFF KAAS 53:08

Yeah. Love it. Love it. Yes. Yeah.

MARK WRIGHT 53:13

I have, uh, you guys know that I’ve got my, my drum sets here in my, in my little studio. The Zildjian Cymbal Company is a Turkish cymbal company, and I’ve got one right here. And I just bought a hat, a Zildjian hat that says 1623 on it. That company was founded 400 years ago in Turkey. And I’m guessing that as those craftspeople were hammering those cymbals, that felt like work, but guess what? Well, at the end of that toiling, when you hit that cymbal, it made just a beautiful sound, and it’s just, I think you guys are right, and, and, I mean, I think the beauty of what my boss, Dan Rogers, and you guys all know Dan, the beauty of what Dan is doing is that he’s making a huge investment to try to redeem work, because he knows, and we all know, that work, um, is kind of a dirty word now, and it’s like, and it doesn’t have to be. It really, really doesn’t have to be. And I think the conversation that we’ve had today is proof that when we pay attention to who we are and what our unique abilities are, um, we can actually do work that is really amazing and has a profound impact on other people. Okay, so here’s the final question, fellas. It’s gonna be good. Um, and we, yeah, drumroll. Literally, I could do that right over there. Let’s, so I want to ask the question. We started out with this question, and I want to end with this question. I want you guys to answer the question, does work have to be your calling? Yes or no? Why? And then give some inspiration to that person who may be struggling with work right now. Maybe they hate their job. Maybe they’re really struggling with a career change, or maybe they just got fired. You know, we’ve all been through that. So does work have to be your calling? Yes or no? Why? And then a little nugget of, of inspiration. Stel, why don’t we start with you, man?

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 55:16

Well, does work need to be your calling? Um, I think the only calling you need to work on is you. I think you need to be your calling. And, uh, you know, it’s, it’s, unless you understand yourself first, then you have no idea what it is. I mentioned it before, like you don’t know what, what work is per se. Okay, so the work that you do on you to understand yourself will open up and give you clarity and understanding of what’s possible. Okay, because you need to believe it. Now, um, you know, in terms of, of the money thing that we talked about before, right? You know, and again, I’ll go to the young ones because they teach me, they say, money’s just a report card to us. Just an indicator. It’s an indicator of the impact that we have on other people, but in order to have the impact on the other people, you know, just, you have to understand yourself that you understand how it all unfolds, right? And, you know, I’ll close off with another strategic coach tool. It’s like Strategic Coach and Keith Cunningham day today. But again, they’ve had a big impact on me, right? So, I can share the story in hopes that it impacts other people. But they have these things called four freedoms. And the four freedoms include time, money, relationships, and purpose. And I think the younger demographic is on to something because they don’t really care about time. It doesn’t exist to them because they’re up at 4 o’clock in the morning and everybody’s wondering why. They don’t want 9 to 5 jobs. They don’t really care about money other than the fact that it’s a report card. And then the question is, what’s a report card for? Well, it’s a report card because they, I think, move from starting with relationships and purpose first, trying to discover what that is, and then the report card of the money, freedom, and the time freedom to do what they love to do shows up a second. Conventionally, we were taught the opposite. Right now, ultimately you want all four, right? So, when all four come together, now you’re living. You’re actually living in the present moment in terms of what’s important to you. So, I don’t know if I answered the question, but I don’t think you need the calling to be your work. I think the calling is you.

MARK WRIGHT 57:37

James.

DR. JAMES BRYANT 57:39

Yeah, um, do you need your calling to be your work? No, you do not. You can still make a meaningful contribution to your job. Your employer does not have to be your calling. Similar to what Stel is saying, I believe that that calling is inside of you and there are numerous ways in which you can lean into and live out that calling whether it’s going on a missions trip, whether it’s going to serve in the soup kitchen, to go mentor and volunteer to reach out to elementary school kids or other kids in the neighborhood, whether it’s going to help someone clean up some other place. There are so many different ways in which you can impact other people and invest in their lives. You know, when I talk about my story and coaching, you know, I didn’t start coaching, um, you know, when I left my job. Um, I started coaching well before I took any courses, well before I did anything by investing in those relationships and the lives of the people that I saw on a day-to-day basis. So, your job does not have to be your calling, but you can live your calling in how you approach your job. You can live out your calling and how you approach everyday life.

MARK WRIGHT 59:00

Oh, that’s fantastic. Jeff.

JEFF KAAS 59:04

I, I think when you can align your knitting to what you get paid to do, I think you have more fun. Uh, so, so I think you, I think you create more value. So, uh, so I would just say it’d be better if, as you’re growing as a human being that you learn about yourself and, and you learn, you know, what brings you joy, what, what doesn’t, um, and you find a place to get. You make money or, or work, whatever serve where you’re creating value for society, but you’re doing life the way you were created or evolved to be. I think it’s just better. Um, so, uh, I, I, I serve with, uh, middle school kids. I love spending, with spending time in church with middle school kids. I’ll never be given a mic. Uh, and I, I warn all the pastors, it’s their last day being employed as pastors. If they gimme a microphone, microphone, um, fair, fair game. But I love hanging out with the kids. I’m good with youth. I love spending time with them. Um, so I think it’s worthy of the discovery of what is it? Like, how are we knitted? And, and, and, and, and discover that through your work. If your current job isn’t doing that for you, what, what can you learn, uh, in your current role so that you’re becoming who you want to become? And it doesn’t mean you’re in a bad job. It means you’re in a job that you’re getting paid to do and you’re creating value. Do it with the utmost care. Um, move on, though. If you’re not still learning, then it’s time to move on. And, uh, I hope you’re not being paid well, because it’s hard to move on when you have a high-paying job. So, it’s so much better when you have a crap job, or crap wages, or crappy people, to move on. It takes a lot of courage to say, I, this promotion, I can move to Washington, D.C., and have the best job I could ever dream of, and I’m gonna say no to that. So, so, so, if you’re in a, what you would call a crap job right now, praise God, move on. Uh, but, uh, and I, I met, I learned this from a, a young lady that worked for us. I will stay here as long as I’m learning. And then the minute I’m not learning, I’m moving on. And she moved on after two years and we, we celebrate that. I still see her. So, anyways, I do think it’s better. I think it’s worthy of the pursuit and this, this discovery thing. Uh, because I believe you create more value in your life. And that value might be like Eric did for you. I know what you’re going through, Mark. I know it’s tough. I love you. And that’s really what his hand was, right? You felt loved by him and respected by him. And, and, uh, that is value. Um, and there was no dollars exchanged that day. But we are all wealthier for hearing that story.

MARK WRIGHT 01:01:30

That’s awesome. Jeff, I wish I knew you 40 years ago because it’s still ringing in my ears, ditch what you suck at. And it just made me think, I mean, the reason that I went into business school and had to take accounting multiple times and almost flunked out of college twice before I found Broadcasting is that I listened to what I thought society was telling me and I wasn’t listening to myself.

JEFF KAAS 01:01:55

Yeah yeah, but you got it. You got there. And at a very young age you ditch what you sucked at. It’s awesome. Proof of the system.

MARK WRIGHT 01:02:05

Proof that it works. Well, this has been such a great conversation and I really mean when I say you, you three are really an inspiration to me, and I know too many others, and the fact that you’re willing to make, uh, time to, to contribute wisdom to the conversation I think is just fantastic. And, you know, I hope that this resonated with, with those of you listening that, you know, maybe you’re not in the ideal job right now, but that’s okay. That’s okay. Make the best of it. Learn from it. Grow from it. Get to where you want to be and you’re going to be making the world a better place. So, thanks you guys I hope we do this again soon on a different topic, but Contributors Corner. That’s a wrap. Thanks guys. Take care.

DR. STEL NIKOLAKAKIS 01:02:45

Thanks. Thanks, Mark.

MARK WRIGHT 01:02:47

I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday and if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING, where we are winning the game of work.