Welcome to our very first edition of “Contributors Corner” on the “BEATS WORKING” podcast. So what is “Contributors Corner?” Each month, we gather past guests for a deep dive into a concept or guest we’ve had on the show. The goal is to uncover new learning and takeaways we can all use to redeem work – making work better for everyone.
This month, we’re exploring servant leadership and the May 2023 “BEATS WORKING” episode featuring former Starbucks president Howard Behar. If you haven’t heard the original interview, it’s definitely worth a listen. Howard is one of the world’s top advocates of servant leadership and has led by example for 50+ years.
Our contributors this month are Jeff Kaas, owner of Kaas Tailored, a manufacturing company near Seattle; André Brisson, host of the “Impulsive Thinker” podcast; and Kristin Graham, founder of Unlock the Brain and host of the podcast “Fewer Things Better.”
Our contributors and host Mark Wright discuss what servant leadership looks like (or doesn’t look like) in various industries and the simple things we can all do to become better servant leaders.
A striking takeaway? How hard it was for our contributors to name exceptional servant leaders they have worked with. How many can you name? Here’s to growing more servant leaders, and thanks for supporting our mission to redeem work.
Listen to the full episode here:
Resources from the episode:
- Listen to “It’s Not About the Coffee,” our episode with Howard Behar, here.
- Howard’s acclaimed book, “It’s Not About the Coffee,” reveals the ten principles and the memorable wisdom that guided his leadership and success (spoiler alert: not one of them is about coffee!). You can read more about it and order it here.
- Connect with Jeff Kaas on LinkedIn.
- Listen to Brisson’s Tactical Breakthroughs podcast here and visit Brisson’s Tactical Breakthroughs website to learn more about him and start your ADHD transformational journey.
- Learn more about Kristin and Unlock the Brain here and listen to Kristin’s “Fewer Things Better” podcast here.
Share Article on Social Media
Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: Kristin Graham, Jeff Kaas, André Brisson, and Mark Wright
KRISTIN GRAHAM 00:00
And he tells a story about in the early days, they were all sitting around a warehouse, putting boxes into it. He looked at the guy next to him and said, maybe we should get those padded gardener things for our knees. And the guy just said as an offhand comment, or we could just get some tables and stand up. And he was like, I’m looking at this whole room of everybody on their knees because I am on my knees. And I think that’s that empowerment too of being like, it kind of goes back to what am I not asking?
MARK WRIGHT 00:31
This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work – the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Welcome to our very first edition of Contributor’s Corner on the BEATS WORKING podcast. Each month we gather past guests and do a deep dive on a concept or guest we’ve had on the show. The goal is to uncover new takeaways and learning we can all use to redeem work, to make work better for everyone. So, this month we’re going deep on servant leadership, and if you haven’t heard the original episode, with former Starbucks president Howard Behar, it is definitely worth a listen. It dropped on May 22nd of this year, 2023. Our contributors this month are Jeff Kaas, owner of Kaas Tailored, which is a manufacturing company north of Seattle. André Brisson, host of the Impulsive Thinker podcast and Kristin Graham, founder of Unlock the Brain and host of the Fewer Things Better podcast. We cover what servant leadership looks like in various industries and also the things we can all do to become better servant leaders. But what I think is most striking about our conversation is how rare true servant leaders are. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jeff, André, and Kristin. Well, welcome to Contributors Corner. This is our first episode. I’ve got three amazing people who’ve already been on the BEATS WORKING podcast. We have, uh, Kristin Graham, we have Jeff Kaas, and we have André Brisson. It’s great to have the three of you with us.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 02:13
Thank you very much.
JEFF KAAS 02:15
Great to have you here. Great to be here.
KRISTIN GRAHAM 02:16
Yay!
MARK WRIGHT 02:17
Awesome. Okay, I’m going to put you guys right on the spot. Uh, so I’m going to ask you, so for our listening audience, if they haven’t heard your episodes, I want you guys to tell us who you are and what you do, what’s your thing. So, Jeff, let’s start with you.
JEFF KAAS 02:32
Oh, yeah. Great. Uh, I’m Jeff Kaas. Uh, I run a small company in the Northwest part of the United States. Um, Mukilteo to be specific, uh, we grow people, uh, happen to build furniture and airplane parts and help other organizations think through maybe, uh, aligning their work to their mission, uh, together. So, yeah. Work with about a hundred and eighty people here.
MARK WRIGHT 02:56
Kristin.
KRISTIN GRAHAM 02:58
Hi, everybody. I’m Kristin I spent a couple decades in corporate and now I’m doing my own thing where I have the intersection of brain science and psychology and I’m a speaker and a facilitator and I try to help people figure out how to do fewer things better and I’m a student of it myself.
MARK WRIGHT 03:15
Awesome. André.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 03:17
Uh my name is André Brisson, the impulsive thinker. I’m an entrepreneur with an skill in engineering, so I do have a structural engineering firm and also just, uh, got my own podcast and starting to help high achieving ADHD entrepreneurs understand that they don’t, they’re not broken, just wired differently. They have special skills.
MARK WRIGHT 03:38
Well, it’s so great to have the three of you here. Um, I just have to say, I’ve, I’ve listened back to the episodes that we all did together, and I’m just, uh, amazed at the wisdom that the three of you have. And the purpose of Contributors Corner really is just to give some new perspectives to an idea that we have had on a previous episode of the BEATS WORKING podcast. So the episode that we’re going to. Breakdown today or the concept that we’re going to break down today is the concept of servant leadership. So, uh, if those of you listening haven’t, uh, listened to the episode featuring former Starbucks president Howard Behar, it’s a fantastic episode and Howard has dedicated his life and his career to being a servant leader. So, we are going to explore what that means from the perspective of these three folks. And also, I’m going to chime in as well. So, what I’d love to, um, before we get into the nuts and bolts of, you know, what, what Howard suggests. When we just talk about the idea of servant leadership, it made me start to think about some of the bosses that I’ve had in the past who were just amazing servant leaders. And I don’t even know if they would call themselves servant leaders but what I’d love to do would be to go around the group and just ask to give me an example of a boss or a person that you knew who was an amazing servant leader. And, uh, you know what, what that was like. So, um, André, why don’t you start first. Was there anybody back in your career that you were like, wow, that that person’s amazing?
ANDRÉ BRISSON 05:06
You know, honestly, I don’t think so. Like, I’ve been unemployable since, uh, I was a kid. Um, for me, I like, I’m just, once we were starting talk here, like I think I’ve been an entrepreneur my whole life. I just never realized until a lot later and would servant leadership help me? I don’t know. Is it for everyone else? I do believe, but the thing that the closest I could think of was like I was working at a restaurant, and he was very open to new ideas on how to improve efficiency in the kitchen. That’s where I was at. Um, and as long as you did your job, it kind of left you alone. Um, so I think that would be, yeah, the restaurant would probably be the best example. Um, but if I went too far, then I was no, no longer cooperative, is what I was also told. But this one, I kind of, this discussion with him, I get the theory, I understand the logic. But for me to work under a servant leader, I don’t know if it would jive with me. It’s almost as if it’s micro. I don’t know. It just seems like an odd concept that makes valid theoretical, uh, understand. It makes sense, but, uh, I’m having a, I’m struggling here. I don’t know why, to be honest.
MARK WRIGHT 06:30
Well, I think that’s a good place. I think that’s a good place to begin. Um, we’ll come back to that. And the idea of empowering your people, that’s something we’re going to break down. Howard has a concept. That he says, you know, if the person who sweeps the floor should, should buy the broom, and, uh, that’s, that’s, uh, one of his examples of, of really empowering employees, uh, to let them do their thing and for the managers to get out of the way. Um, Kristin, what about you? Any examples of, of great servant leaders in your past?
KRISTIN GRAHAM 07:00
Yeah, I had a similar reaction at first as André in terms of, I have a whole long list of things I can tell you, things I learned from people who didn’t lead very well. But one of the things, André, when you were talking that struck me is sometimes servant leadership doesn’t look like servitude in the moment and whether that’s tough feedback or opportunities where you’ve got nudged forward. So what I reflected on was, um, I’ve early in my career, I was doing a lot of communications work and I was supporting executives. I was there to make that happen them look and sound good, and I had just come back from maternity leave. I was working at a large consulting company for maternity leave with my second child. And I was supporting the COO of a company and she invited me to come to her weekly leadership team meeting and I thought, well, that’s great. She’s giving me exposure and I would just go, and I would observe and thinking how nice that she’s letting me see how leaders think. And one day in the hall afterwards, and you know, I’m still back, still a new parent, upside down, didn’t really trust myself to have anything articulate to say, but I was just glad to watch the conversation. And in the hallway, she stopped me and said, hey, Kristin, this isn’t dinner theater. You don’t get to come and watch. If you’re in a room, have something to say, or don’t be in the room. And wow, I didn’t realize at the time that she wasn’t giving me an opportunity. She just held open the door. And so, I never connected those two as servant leadership and it wasn’t sponsorship or you’re here to take notes, kitten. It was more like if you’re on the field, play the game.
MARK WRIGHT 08:35
Wow. That’s an interesting story. That’s very cool. Jeff, what about you? I know that, uh, in, you know, when we did our interview, you talked about how you and your dad, uh, you learned a lot from your dad. You fought a lot with your dad as well. Well, what, what comes to mind when it comes to servant leadership with you, Jeff?
JEFF KAAS 08:55
Well, the examples, so you think about examples, um, it’s, it’s hard to use my dad just because I was such a crappy kid to him, but, uh, there’s two, two examples that are kind of more in the public domain that I just, I almost fell over when I really learned the truth of the story. Uh, uh, one is, uh, Blake Nordstrom, he passed away a few years back, but every single person, I was, uh, doing a little bit of work at Nordstrom at the time, um, and every single person who met him had a story that was better than what was in the public domain. He had a very other focus and a very like curious nature and, um, they were cared for by him. So, I was blown away by like, you know, there’s the, the stories you hear, but then, I mean, I’ve probably heard 20, 30 examples of he knew my name. He remembered our last conversation. He remembered the thing that we were doing to make life better. Um, so when you ask the question of who, uh, I didn’t work for him, but, uh, there were a customer and therefore I kind of did. And that did permeate all the way through to their supply chain base. Um, the other that came to mind just when you mentioned it was uh, D. J. Depree, uh, founder of, uh, of Herma Miller. Um, I went for a tour of this factory and these people were like, D. J. taught us this, D. J. taught us that. And I’m sitting there going, I’d like to meet D. J. and they looked at me like, D. J. has been dead for a long time. I’m like, are you kidding me? This man is still serving you? So, I think when I think of servant leadership, I did, I, I, it’s literally the, the moment I walked out of that factory, I called my dad, I’m like, this dude is still stirring dirt. Not only was he a servant leader while he was alive in the today, in the moment, um, in the, the other focus conversations. That guy is still blessing people through his service, because he left behind a system of service. So those are the two that came to mind of examples now.
MARK WRIGHT 10:49
Yeah, I think when, when I think about servant leadership, I think about one of the hallmarks in my mind of a great servant leader is the person who doesn’t necessarily have to verbalize everything that they’re trying to get their employees to do or think, um, I think a great servant leader just rolls up their sleeves and does it. Um, you know, I came from an industry 35 years in television, and it’s a very, you know, still kind of draconian. It’s getting better. But, you know, there were times way back in the day when yelling at someone in the newsroom was perfectly acceptable. And, you know, berating someone in the newsroom was perfectly acceptable. And, uh, I think back when I was in Salt Lake City for about four or five years, um, the We had a general manager and his name was Duffy Dyer, and we had an open set. So, the set was here in the newsroom was in the background and the, we did the morning show, you know, like a four hour morning show and you know, six, six in the morning, Duffy would show up. And I would look over and there was a little break room over there, a little coffee station, Duffy always was wiping down the counters, he was picking up trash, um, just making the station look nice, and here’s, here’s the guy who’s the general manager, the very top manager of this station. And another thing that Duffy did was every summer from Memorial Day to Labor Day, Duffy would go on Fridays, he would go and get hamburgers and hot dogs and supplies from Costco. And he would fire up the barbecue and he would cook lunch for all of us every Friday for the whole summer and he would require his department heads to to make a side dish and to not only make a side dish but to actually stand by their side dish and serve us as as we came through the line. So, every Friday for the whole summer, we had this amazing example of our bosses serving us lunch and that made such a huge impact on me because he wasn’t just telling his you his staff, hey, you know, serve, serve your people. He, they literally served us, and it was just such a, I really, uh, to this day, I just have a fondness for, for that guy because in, in what could have been a pretty brutal industry, he was just a, really just a beam, beam of light for me. Um, yeah.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 13:05
So, Kristin’s story and Jess just really. It clicked for me. I think you’re right, Kristin. It’s almost a quiet leadership. People that gave me the opportunities without saying it is. Um, I went straight to a boss. But what Jeff and Kristin were saying, I can actually relate to a couple work terms in my university or college career. They weren’t bosses, but they were in the department that gave me the opportunity or just quietly nudged me to stop being Two out there, or if you want to try something, here you are. Um, so it’s not only in a, in a supervisor role, I think people can do it. It’s also at arm’s length or a coworker, or even if I, the first thing after Kristin was finished her story, I thought of two family friends. I remember this one time I was in planes and rockets and the neighbor had remodel airplanes and I hung out with them, and they let me help them build them. And then one day he says, do you want to try flying them? I said, yeah, I took it, and I crashed it right away. Nose die. Whoops. Ah, well you learned what not to do next time, let’s go back and fix it is all they said, and we fixed it and we learned from it. So, I think that’s another example of the servant leadership and based on what Jeff was saying, like, you know, helping without being there, I think is like, it’s a legacy type of thing. System of service. I think there’s a nice frame framework to follow on that and like Kristin said, quiet leadership.
MARK WRIGHT 14:30
Yeah, that’s cool. So, let’s get into this idea of the person who sweeps the floor, buy the broom. Because, you know, in, in Howard Behar’s example, you know, when you start to get a company with 15,000 now, you know, 25,000 stores or whatever they have now, you can’t run everything yourself and you can’t control everything yourself. You really have to just empower people and let it go. Jeff, in your exam, in your, you know, you talked in your episode with us about how you and your dad went to Japan in the 90s and studied the Toyota production model. I’d love to know from you, did that model explicitly have like a servant leadership chapter or, or basis, or how, how did servant leadership, you know, how did that fit in with the Toyota production model?
JEFF KAAS 15:19
Yeah, um, I wouldn’t have noticed it at the time. So, but looking, looking back, um, you would hear things. Um, like they’d almost be offended by the questions we would ask. We’d be noticing the shiny things, and they’d be like, but what about the thinking? Um, and they would say things like, you know, uh, if we don’t take care of the next generation, nobody will. And, and then the entire system is set up so that if you’re working on a car there, um, and you have a problem, there’s a, there’s a, you can just reach over and pull a, a cord, and a boss comes running over. That’s, that’s his job, to run over. And if that guy’s stuck, he pulls the different one, and another boss runs over. And I watch this over and over and over again. So, in that very way, they had systematized the idea of, uh, your problem, when you identify it. So, the, the, that person on the front line, um, really just has to say, I think there’s a problem. And then they pull the cord. And there’s somebody to come alongside them to say, Is it really a problem? Yes or no. And if it is a problem, they pull it and say, hey, next boss, come help us fix it. So, there are lots of clues along the way that, uh, that this was, uh, a system built on, you know, service. And in, in my view, um, it’s very loving to help. So, the, the, if I think of like what the world needs more of, maybe love and respect, something along those lines. The system of flow is very loving. You’re never stuck in that system so long as you use the system. So yeah, it was there. Um, I didn’t get it and, uh, probably I’m still missing like 90% of it.
MARK WRIGHT 16:55
Yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting. Kristin in your, you know, you’ve worked for some really big tech companies. Um, was this concept of, of employee empowerment, you know, the person sweeping the floor should buy the broom. Do you think that’s pretty well embraced, uh, by, by some of the larger companies in America? And do you have examples of that?
KRISTIN GRAHAM 17:15
I think it can be, but I think there’s an inherent element of resistance. I love, Jeff, how you said that about it being loving. Loving’s not, that’s not a sentiment, at least in early cultural formations and people kind of follow the unwritten and unspoken norms and that becomes part of the issue with culture. And as you both were talking, I was reflecting on, and I used to be a journalist and I used to write for and help executives communicate. So when I became a baby executive, I knew because I’d watched it that people only answer what they’re asked and you can’t as a leader. You can’t know what you don’t know. And there’s this whole knowledge gap of what people aren’t telling you. And so, I love what André said earlier about being the truth teller and being the one who brings those voices forward. And so one of the elements, I think, of servant leadership, when I got put into a position which I was not qualified for but I had a leadership title, I stopped hearing things. I went from being kind of the voice of the people to a title and my knowledge got increasingly more narrow, and it’s very easy to get drunk on your own knowledge. And so when I was going around, I was the first big job, I was wildly. for besides parenting, was leading this giant recruiting function. And I went to a lot of the frontline individuals and instead of telling them what I knew, which was nothing, I had two questions at the end, and I said, what don’t I know? Because we’ve all been in the rooms where like this person doesn’t know a thing. I’m just going to sit here and watch and eat my popcorn. But what don’t I know? That really kind of brings forward and then the other question I would say is what am I not asking? And those two pieces helped uncover things that I would have never had access to or an understanding to dig into further. And if you’re willing to show your ignorance, you will get so much more knowledge as a result. But it takes courage to listen and not speak.
MARK WRIGHT 19:27
Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s really, really good stuff, Kristin. André, I wanted to ask you, you come from an engineering background, an engineering world, engineers, engineers help build stuff. And I’m just imagining on work sites, that’s sort of a macho setting, right? And I’m, I’m wondering, is it, is it. possible in that sort of world to be a servant leader. What? What might that look like? I mean, part of, you know, what we talked about is empowering employees to really let them come up with creative ideas. But as you and I have talked about in the past, there’s there’s a line where it’s like, wow, that’s a crazy idea and you’re wasting my time. Um, tell me more about that.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 20:13
There’s a difference between allowing employees to have ideas versus executing them, right?S What Jeff and Kristen were saying and it kept coming to my mind was ego, right?Toyota, what they actually did was removed ego from the hierarchy of authority. The boss is there to help the worker. The boss’s boss is there to help the worker. And it’s okay to say I don’t know. And what Kristin was saying that, you know, ego comes with a title. And I like how you say you get drunk on your own knowledge and then you become, you have to be that person.The authority, for some reason, misunderstood as I have the experience and the knowledge, therefore you must listen. And I will not listen to your ideas. So, allowing people to come up with ideas has the communication we’re hearing, and if it works great, if not, sorry. So, I think there’s a, there’s a subtle difference there.And yes, construction sites are very bravado. Uh, I forget the term use macho, which is to me still ego. Um, I’ve seen a lot of construction supers where are very egotistical and very controlling and demanding while others are like, how can we make this work? I hired you for your skills. What do we need to do?That works. Nope, that doesn’t work. That works. It meets the schedule. Let’s do it. And then those are the better sites to work on because things are flowing better. And I’ve never really, you know, the term servant leadership. I guess I’m kind of doing it in a way because I do give people the freedom to come up with ideas to call BS on me or to remind me that I’m contradicting myself.Um, and I, it’s okay, but that’s not everywhere. And it’s, and then like, I’m like, Jeff, I was like, you know, loving to help. That can only be done if you remove the ego from it and be authentic, which falls into Kristin’s point. It just comes down to ego. If I’m going to be the boss and march around, you know, I think we got to take the ego out of it. And from, uh, was it Bahar? I keep like Howard’s story.
MARK WRIGHT 22:13
Yeah. Howard Behar. Yeah.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 22:15
He was kind of like a little bit like me. I really don’t care who’s I, for an engineer, this is odd to say on the construction site. I don’t care whose idea it is as long as it works. We’ll make it happen. And that’s what I got from his story is I can’t come up with the ideas I can help coordinate them or if I can get the right people at the table to get this solved I think that’s another way of doing it I don’t care if I’m the superstar cuz I came up with the idea. It’s like one person I would say it no one cares if you came up the idea or not You just help them get there and they think you came up with the idea.
MARK WRIGHT 22:47
Yeah that’s so true and if you haven’t those of you listening if you haven’t listened to the Howard Behar episode, a district manager in Southern California came up with the idea of the Frappuccino because a competitor was selling something similar, and there’s a really cool, uh, story within that podcast episode about how Howard and this district manager had to literally fight at the corporate level here in Seattle to get the Frappuccino to become a reality, which became a 4 billion a year, um, source of revenue for Starbucks and was 20% of its revenue at one point. And, and that idea almost didn’t happen, uh, but it did. It did because Howard recognized it was a good idea and fought for it.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 23:29
And he allowed the ideas to come up. He allowed the ideas to come up.
MARK WRIGHT 23:33
He didn’t have all the answers. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, Jeff, I would love some wisdom from you because, you know, your, uh, business, it seems to me, um, is really dedicated to figuring out better, easier ways to make stuff that still honors the employee. So, from a structural standpoint, when we talk about the idea of the person who sweeps the floor should buy the broom from, from just a company structure standpoint, Jeff, how do you get to the place of really getting the employees to feel comfortable and to actually have a structure where they can give their input and then make those a reality in terms of how you do business?
JEFF KAAS 24:13
Yeah, I think, I think the, the main way is to recognize that there’s a really big gap between authority and the information needed to make decisions in most places. So, uh, everywhere in our company you can look, we’re just trying to close that gap and bring the authority to make decisions. In line with our purpose or our values as close as it can be to the information that’s available. Uh, so you can kind of audit our, our business and go, oh, where’s the authority, where’s the information and one could audit and go, okay, I can see it’s, it’s really close. Um, a lot of times, uh, we would see, uh, ideas, but the ideas, if they don’t have the opportunity to implement them, the person doing that, uh, having the idea doesn’t get the opportunity to refine that idea or learn other ideas. So, part of our structure is to say, hey, when you find something that bugs you, Um, there’s science behind that. Uh, so we can say, if it’s bugging you, it’s probably not profitable. Who cares? Um, but, I kind of care. Uh, but not only we, we want you to pair with somebody to identify that problem, but we want you to pair with somebody to resolve that problem. So the problems aren’t given to somebody else. The problems are that opportunity to grow somebody. So, I think it really is important when we’re thinking about an organization, um, like a company or church, whatever is, is to really understand, hey, what are we trying to achieve? And if it’s all about building furniture, then the structure and the context and the tools should all be about really good, you know, structure of a chair. Um, our, yeah, our, our current activities are much more on how to grow people and let the furniture be the teacher. So, yeah, so really, it really starts with what are we trying to achieve, um, even to the point of should cost my company exist? Does the world actually need, uh, people who make pajamas for airplanes? Does the world actually need, you know, more furniture? And I can kind of say kind of, yes, but maybe no, but the world definitely needs a place where people can come in and learn how to collaborate and how to work and how to, to become better versions of themselves. So, if we didn’t have that in mind, then a lot of these tools, I think don’t make sense. So it does take kind of the, the, the kind of purpose or mission to be connected then to that structure and then it becomes kind of easy. You can just observe and say, okay, does a person have the knowledge to do the work? Do they know that they’re responsible? Can they do the work? And if they do a great job, how soon will it be before they know? Or if there’s a problem, can they fix it? Um, and so, uh, yeah, there’s some tools that I think come along with that, but it really starts with knowing where you’re trying to achieve. And then even a dog could come in and observe what we’re doing. This is why telling, you know, telling servant leadership. It’s about doing and, um, setting up a structure that just causes people to, to move that direction.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 27:08
Can I ask Jeff something? To me, I got a question there because I have a feeling that society over the last hundred years has not allowed people to accept servant leadership because of this ego authority thing because what I run into a lot is I’m giving you the, like to the employees or to other. The power to give, let me know new ideas to help yourself. No, no, you tell me what to do. Tell me what to do. I cannot come up with my own request. So, is this a society thing that we’re also challenging because it’s sometimes yeah servant leadership is a great thing to be a leader as but at times I see it’s not well received Is it because of the way that people are or just that this is where because this is not how things are normally done. Why are you listening to me? You know if you got that what you said the news leader coming in yelling screaming at you all the time then it’s a normal day but if they show up when they not yelling you’re like, uh, what’s going on?
JEFF KAAS 28:11
Yeah, I don’t, I don’t really think I have a viewpoint that is credible other than I can say, um, we have a variety of cultures at my company. No, no, no. Yeah. But a little bit of experience. Um, so what, what we see is there are some cultures where speaking up might, might get you killed, right? So, we have 12 languages spoken in our company. So. That, that background noise, I don’t know, I don’t know what, what, uh, is there. So, we, we really try to reach people where they’re at and some are really comfortable sharing ideas and there’s a process for that. Some of them are not comfortable, but they’ll clap when somebody shares an idea and that’s also a way to, to pave it. So, I think the role of leadership is to take people where they are, love them where they’re at and accept whatever they’re willing to give but expect and encourage growth wherever they’re at. Um, yeah, and I don’t know, uh, so you might be able to tell I’m a white guy. So, in America that’s not so great these days. Um, so I have really no, no real clear understanding of how I got where I’m at. Um, and all the blessings that allowed me to be me. Uh, but, uh, I can definitely say that, uh, encouraging, uh, having a culture where, uh, people can make decisions. Uh, doesn’t necessarily cause people to do it. In fact, many times we’re like, do you know you’re sitting in a pile of dung? And, and they know it and they’re not doing anything with it. So, there’s something more to do, but that’s part of our job is to discover that with them.
KRISTIN GRAHAM 29:42
I really love how you both brought that up because we can talk about ego. We could talk about power, but power without empowerment. Really just falls flat. That’s just another poster in the kitchen and Jeff, what you just said to there that there’s cultural nuances and norms at play there. And sometimes the empowerment is paying attention to what other people are paying attention to because there’s a systemic or historical reasons that people aren’t putting their voice to something. And so there is an aspect of when you are in a leadership component, you are then empowered on behalf of others and even having forums where people can submit feedback and ideas where they don’t have to attach their name is a form of servant leadership too, because we don’t always have the means, the privilege, or the ability to come forward with our voice for a lot of different elements. So I think that servant leadership also plays into how does that get filtered and factored throughout the entire organization.
MARK WRIGHT 30:48
Kristin, do you think it’s harder to be a servant leader at a larger company? Jeff talked about, you know, Blake Nordstrom. Um, you know, we were talking about Howard Behar, who was, you know, in charge of one of the biggest companies in the world. But do you think just inherently it’s harder? To, to just be that servant leader as you rise the corporate ranks. Is there a greater expectation to just know what to do and tell people what to do?
KRISTIN GRAHAM 31:16
Well, so having worked at Amazon as one of the largest companies in the world, one of the elements that Jeff Bezos used to, he was another Nordstrom story where people would tell a lot of stories, but he would say for sure, but that that’s where mechanisms come into place instead of just ideas and kind of cultural aspirations. And so, one of the elements with, uh, idea generation and decision making at Amazon from the very early days was, um, putting them into papers. And I spoke to you a little bit about that, Mark, in our conversation but because it removed the speaker from the ideas that were being brought forward. So he called it the Great Equalizer. And he saw that very early on when he would have to remind people the best ideas aren’t coming from the boxes at the top of the org chart, but he also understood there was that natural tension of, well, if we’re all sitting on the floor, packing books into boxes, that must be the best way to do it. And he tells a story about in the early days, they were all sitting around a warehouse, putting boxes into it. He looked at the guy next to him and said, maybe we should get those padded gardener things for our knees. And the guy just said, as an offhand comment, or we could just get some tables and stand up. And he, he was like, I’m looking at this whole room of everybody on their knees because I am on my knees. And I think that’s that empowerment too, of being like, it kind of goes back to what am I not asking? Can we get some tables? So, yeah, I do, I do think I think it’s just socialized in all of us.
MARK WRIGHT 32:49
Yeah. André, I wanted to ask you something because you have, you, you really inspired me when we talked. Um, you know, for our episode that one of the things that you are really trying to do as, as a leader in your company, your engineering company is to really understand your employees because, um, neurodiversity is something that is, is becoming a lot more recognized now and you really believe that the job of a boss really needs to be to truly understand their employees. Because if I have a neurodiverse employee and I don’t understand that, I just think, why aren’t you paying attention in these meetings? Or why aren’t you showing up on time? Or why aren’t you X, Y, Z? Talk a little bit more about that, because in my mind, that is one of the definitions of servant leadership, is to truly understand uh, employees and, and, and where they’re coming from, right?
ANDRÉ BRISSON 33:48
And wanting to understand and that’s the other thing too, but like in my, in my mind, neurodiverse, everyone’s neurodiverse. Like, everyone’s unique, everyone has a unique way of doing things, the thinking, maybe in a social norm, that’s more of a normal, acceptable way of doing it, within a wide parameter, and then you got the outliers, which we’re called now as neurodiverse, um, and it’s great, we’re having a conversation, but I’ve always seen, at a young age, everyone’s uniquely indifferent, everyone uniquely reacts to things in different ways, and I, what makes you different? And I always try to figure out you so I can get you to make better use of yourself or use your strengths. Um, and how do you tick and to try and group people and that’s why a lot of these personality tests when I use properly is we’re boxing people in you know you’re a nerd ever. It’s your ADHD. You’re autistic. You’re neurotypical, those are boxes. But even within those boxes, we got different compartments and every person is a compartment. Well, that’s good I got to remember that analogy. Uhm that’s the bit of the impulse of thinking there. Sorry. So yeah, I’ve try and learn how everyone works, what their strengths and what they enjoy doing and try to get them to do that as often as possible and I’m always open to ideas. And the one thing I tell my new team members is just because you’re a year or two in the industry or a few weeks into the company. If you have an idea, speak it. It may not work. It might be a silly idea. But you know what? That silly idea might get us on a different track to come up with the right solution. So, and plus, I don’t think there’s ever a silly question. There’s just, as long as it makes sense and is a valid question, it can dictate the direction and the speed of a solution, because like in the engineering world, any professional we’re stuck there, you know, after five years, those professionals are stuck on one track and there’s only one way doing it, even if there’s a quicker way. So we need to get derailed to get all that track to come up with other solutions. And I, and I say, whoever it is, right? I, I don’t care if the plumber comes up with a good structural idea to make something quicker. That’s awesome, man. Thank you very much. You saved us two weeks of trouble. Let’s go, right? But engineering, you’re supposed, and if I don’t know it, I say, I don’t know. And people’s draws drop because an engineer says, I don’t know, I don’t hide things. And, and like Kristin and Jeff were talking about too, I think the other part of the servant leadership, authenticity, because I think to be authentic, you got to remove the ego. You got to get yourself out of the way and be open to, you know, you may look like a fool. I’ve been openly called out and said, you don’t know what you’re talking about. And I said, pardon me, explain. And if they can explain properly, you’re right. I don’t know what I’m talking about. Thank you very much, right? Okay. So, I don’t look like a fool, but I learned something new. And that, with my team, it’s okay. We make a mistake, we own up to it now. So, we can solve it for the client. So, I want engineers to make mistakes here because we’re trying something new. That’s the way I see it, but in the engineering world, we can’t make mistakes or they can’t make mistakes. So I think, yeah, it’s, it’s quite interesting. I think it, I allow them the freedom that I’ve given myself to do as running my own company, you know, why am I the only one allowed to make mistakes and no one else is? I never thought that that’s hypocritical. So, if you make a mistake, let’s figure out what happened, avoid it, congratulations. We learned something new.
MARK WRIGHT 37:23
You talk about authenticity. That’s one of, uh, Howard Behar’s chapters in his book. It’s not about the coffee and that is wear one hat. He found earlier in his career he was showing up differently in different settings in the boardroom. And, uh, on the floor of the, the store and, and, uh, he just realized that was exhausting and that he just needed to be Howard. Um, Kristin, did you ever struggle with that earlier in your career when you, when you sort of, you had a title and you were expected to be a certain thing? Um, did you wear different hats?
KRISTIN GRAHAM 37:54
Absolutely. I, I think that that’s one of the we talked about ego earlier, but you, there’s imposter syndrome that, that happens all across the board. That’s probably the one thing that we all share in common, but don’t share out loud. And that story that he told really stuck with me, especially when he said, I finally had to decide there was only one Howard. Especially when he went back after he was called on, hey, you’ve changed. And the original person who told him that was like, nope, that’s exactly what I meant. I was, I was telling you to conform. That’s real, and I think for me, um, especially when I, when I came out to this global.com and landed in the tech landscape, which has its own. And when I was elevated to a level pretty quickly, uh, a couple of things happened. I was only the 23rd woman at that level. And the fact that I knew what number I was like that was on, that was in my head, but nobody else’s. And so, and Mark, I told you, I grew up in a military family. I was the youngest, the only girl. I, I, I didn’t have an issue being around that energy but when I then had a title that followed it, I started changing myself too. So, we can’t put everything on a culture. We’re just trying to wear bigger shoes that don’t always fit. And so it took, it took some time for me to come back to what Howard said was just, just be one Howard. And a lot of that really has to be recognized when we start feeling inauthentic. I love how we’ve brought that word up several times, um, because of things that make us great on the way to making us human also make us not great. And so that really kind of leading forward and still being curious and a little just contradictory in meetings and, or asking those silly questions, as somebody said, that was my superpower, but I was trying to change my hat while I’m running down the hallway. So, it is something that. It’s very common for us to do, and then to liberate ourselves from, and it’s not always going to be rewarded.
MARK WRIGHT 39:54
Jeff, did you ever have, uh, trouble with different hats or did you always kind of have the Jeff hat on?
JEFF KAAS 40:01
Yeah, the trouble was I always wore my hat. Yeah, so yeah, I had somebody who knew me in business and then they, they got around me at home and like, ah, I thought you’d be different at home, which was not a compliment. So yeah, yeah. I, I kind of had the opportunity to decide a little bit about my identity early in life and, uh, and I, I had some things that helped me, but one of them was just kind of F the world if, if God’s okay with me and my wife’s okay with me. Yeah. And it was, it was not okay, but, uh, so yeah, but it’s a problem, but for different reasons.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 40:40
It’s a problem because it doesn’t fit the social norm.
JEFF KAAS 40:44
That’s okay. I’m, I’m okay with that.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 40:46
No, I know. I, I, I agree with, I learned the same way. Uh, but just to go on, Kristin, like, you know, authenticity almost to me is knowing your strengths and your weaknesses, and that’s where the vulnerability is. It’s the weakness side. You know, it’s not just being authentic, being the true Jeff, and there’s one way, but you know, we gotta be open to our weaknesses to be truly authentic.
JEFF KAAS 41:09
Is it just our weaknesses or our strengths?
ANDRÉ BRISSON 41:11
No, no. Strengths too. I just went more on the weaknesses. A lot of people say I’m authentic, but they’re not dealing with their weaknesses. Like to be truly authentic is open up your vulnerabilities at the same time, not just being strong and a certain personality.
MARK WRIGHT 41:28
Yeah. Yeah. I have, I have a boss who knows my weaknesses and you guys all know my boss, Dan Rogers. And we, we had a meeting one time and, and somebody floated an idea and said, yeah, Mark, oh why don’t you do that? And Dan jumped right in and said, no, no, no, no, that would, he, that Mark is not good at that, and that would waste Mark’s time. And let’s get somebody else to do that. And, and I was okay with that because he’s the kind of boss that he doesn’t want to waste anyone’s time by getting them to do something that they’re not good at. And somebody else on the team was way better at this kind of thing. And so, I happily said, yeah, why don’t we have Darcy do that? And, uh, and it all worked out. Um, I want to kind of try to start wrapping things up. I just love what we’ve talked about so far. I think as, as we wrap things up, I’d love to hear from each of you, just about some words of inspiration. I know, you know, Jeff, when we talked in, in our episode, you went through many years of business school and realized you had to come out of business school and unlearn almost everything that you learned. And, and, uh, you know, a lot of the stuff that you wish you had learned in school, you didn’t, and you learned it on the job. So I’d love, I’d love each of you to kind of give a summary statement of, you know, what you think servant leadership is, and what’s your best advice to that person who says, man, I really want to be, I want to be that servant leader. I want to be that leader that when I’m gone, they say, man, Mark did this, and Mark did that. And he encouraged us to do that. So, Jeff, why don’t you start us out? What? And take us, take as much time as you want, but what, what’s the key to what we’re talking about here? Because I, I think you are, you’ve been living it for a long time, man.
JEFF KAAS 43:20
Yeah. We would have a different perspective on that, but, uh, trying to, I’d say, um, I think it’s really, it starts with others focused and, and actually not, um, um, holding on to the idea that we are having a legacy, actually don’t care if I’m remembered. Um, so what I mean by that is if I plant seeds that grow. Um, and I never get to know that those seeds grow. Um, am I actually okay with that? Because a true servant dies to self and, and washes feet. And, and the sole focus is on that other person. So, I think to be a servant, um, the, it’s one thing to be a leader, it means that we’re going somewhere. So, to put those two together, to me, as a servant leader, I think for me, the growth for me is really, am I really others focused? Am I about them and their family, their community, their future? Does my name need to be attached to any part of their success? And I’m becoming more and more comfortable with being a seed planter. Of course, I love to see the plant grow. Of course, the, my own curiosity and my own desire to have feedback. So, I know that I’m doing something worthwhile. Um, I do crave that also, but I’m, I’m trying to become much more comfortable with just loving people and hoping and, and striving to serve them well with zero expectation of return. Now, when we put servant leader in the business aspect, um, we. are usually financed by somebody who’s entrusted us with something. So, the, to me the big question then is, is it, um, even morally or ethically right to be a servant leader when you’re playing with other people’s money? And I’ve come to believe that, I’ve come to believe that it is because, um, the science lines up with human beings who are loved and respected and who, um, are creative and creating value will create a lot more long term profit. So, I think, uh, like when we think about this from a business context, uh, a business person who’s really greedy should start with, uh, do I want people who are servant leaders? Yes or no? And if the answer is yes, it should be just financially. Start there. And then if they care a little bit about profit for society, they should say, would that servant leader be profitable for society? If that’s what they care about. So, to me, being a servant, being a leader, being a servant leader, it could be a friend, could be whatever. But in the context of business, it needs to be the most profitable, and not just money, but most profitable, as decided by the money you’re playing with. So yeah, that’s a lot there. But, uh, um, others focused, if I had to say anything, others focused would be stay there and don’t worry about the rest. Love your neighbor. It works out.
MARK WRIGHT 46:13
That’s great. Thank you, Jeff. André, what about you? What, what, what’s your best advice in terms of how to be that servant leader?
ANDRÉ BRISSON 46:22
Uh, for me, I’ve always wanted others, other people to succeed and them to take the credit for it with my help and support. I never want to be on stage with them. I always wanted them to be front and center. Um, and that’s how I’ve always kind of done it. Like the one example is our company won an award. It’s actually the majority of the team that did the work. I just came with a crazy commitment that we can do this impossible project, and they actually made my promise true. And we won the award. They wanted me to go on stage with them as the owner and I pretended to get up from the table as we’re walk, they’re walking up and then I sat back down. I wanted them to get the credit, and everyone went to them afterwards to discuss how this impossible project was done. That’s how I see it as one way. And there’s a few other things too, especially with the ADHD work I’m doing and the entrepreneurial group I kind of hang out with is they’re talking about ADHD and neurodiversity more and more and I don’t get the credit for that because I know I initiated the conversation but I don’t care. I just know I influenced it. And then what I’m starting to see now is the right people know it anyways. And so, to me, that just gave me context that I guess I’ve been more of a servant leader than I actually gave myself credit for. So, and Jeff, I really liked the comment you made to be a leader. You have, you need a place to go. And I think that’s another thing that I think that just differentiates people who think they’re leaders, but they’re not, cause there’s no place to go. So, thanks for that.
JEFF KAAS 48:02
Yeah, appreciate the conversation a lot.
MARK WRIGHT 48:06
Kristin, what about you?
KRISTIN GRAHAM 48:07
I was reflecting back on the story that Howard Behar told in the book about writing notes to employees on their service anniversaries and their birthdays. And I’ve seen that in action and I had adopted that early on as well because, um, not everybody’s going to be able to get a promotion, or a title, or a bonus, or have a voice in a room but the one thing that everyone has in common is a birthday and a service anniversary. And finding the commonality that can be recognized, because recognition is not universal or evenly distributed. And so, my summary of that, what I took from that example was, small efforts from you aren’t always small to others. And he talked about how people would mention that later, about getting that, getting that note from him. And so those small efforts that we take can really have lasting impact on feeling known, feeling seen. And if we want to talk about a world that feels inclusive, if not equitable, but at least inclusive, being seen is probably the most powerful thing that you can give another person. Um, and when I first became a parent, I was given this quote and it still hangs in my home to this day that just says, to the world, you may be one person, but to one person, you may be the world. And I can’t think of a better summary for how we can all be of service to others and remember that the power we already have in a lot of that comes from the small moments.
MARK WRIGHT 49:33
Yeah. And it’s interesting to think that Howard wrote, you know, 10,000 Letters, notes a year to, to those employees and, and you’re right, Kristin, he said years later people would come up and say, Howard, I still have that note. There was a guy, do you guys remember Phil Smart? I guess, uh, Jeff Kaas, Jeff might, and Kristin might. Phil Smart was, uh, a really prominent car dealer, uh, in Seattle, uh, and philanthropist and, uh, Phil was an amazing man and, uh, he would go to children’s hospital, uh, every week and spend time with terminally ill children, play games with them, read stories to them. And uh, he had this concept of the third eight. You work for eight hours, you sleep for eight hours, what are you doing with your third eight? And he would always challenge people around him. But the thing that most impressed me about Phil was that, uh, we did a charity event together. And, uh, I just emcee the event. It wasn’t anything extraordinary, and he wrote me a full page handwritten letter thanking me for for helping raise money for the cause. And I just thought, man, here’s a guy who’s amazingly powerful and busy. And he took a moment to write me a personal note. And I still have the note that Phil wrote, and he’s no longer with us. But I think that’s at the heart of it, right? You guys, you know, servant leadership is just as Jeff said, looking at other people and saying, how can I help that person? So, this is, yeah, yeah.
ANDRÉ BRISSON 51:05
And do it your way and do it your way just because he does that that way doesn’t mean that’s the only way it’s got to be true to you because if you write letters because that’s the way it’s expected, people know that’s not genuine. If you’re not a letter writer, people know.
MARK WRIGHT 51:20
They’ll know quickly, right? Um, I, I, I really want to thank the three of you. And, and as we say goodbye, um, I would love to be able to tell people how they can get in touch with, with all of you, Jeff, as, uh, you’ve, you’ve allowed thousands of people to tour your factory, but, uh, Jeff, what’s the easiest way for people to get ahold of you?
JEFF KAAS 51:41
Um, yeah. Email jeffkaas@me.com. That’s the easiest m-e. com. Yep.
MARK WRIGHT 51:48
Okay. And if they’re interested in a tour, that’s probably a good way to do that.
JEFF KAAS 51:52
There aren’t too many with my name. So.
MARK WRIGHT 51:55
Yeah, K-A-A- S.
JEFF KAAS 51:57
There you go. Yeah, thanks.
MARK WRIGHT 51:58
Uh, André, you’ve got a great podcast, The Impulsive Thinker. What’s the best way for folks to get a hold of you?
ANDRÉ BRISSON 52:03
Yeah, email or LinkedIn, andre@tacticalBTS.com, uh, through the website or on LinkedIn. The Impulsive Thinker. It helps.
MARK WRIGHT 52:13
Awesome. And Kristen.
KRISTIN GRAHAM 52:15
Uh, I’m also on LinkedIn quite a bit. You can always find me there and, um, my website is Unlock The Brain and my podcast is fewer things better. So, kristin@unlockthebrain.com. Um, I nerd in all sorts of places.
MARK WRIGHT 52:32
Turning the word nerd into a verb. I love it.
KRISTIN GRAHAM 52:35
An attribute.
MARK WRIGHT 52:36
Well, Kristin Graham, André Brisson, Jeff Kaas, thank you so much. Um, you guys are just exceptional people and I, I really appreciate your time and, and especially your wisdom on this stuff because I think, um, you, you’re all helping us get to a better place and I really appreciate that. I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. And if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING, where we are winning the game of work.