Wouldn’t it be cool to predict an amazing year in advance? To describe in detail what the next 12 months will bring before they even happen. Chicago entrepreneur Joe Martin did just that, and he says you can do it, too!
It started when Joe decided to get more intentional with life, so he wrote a list of “cool things to do”—things as simple as taking his mom out on a date. That led to a TEDx talk where he laid out his idea of naming your year, which put Joe on a journey dedicated to creating the future and a better present.
Joe has owned and operated a creative agency for years, where he started adopting 6-week business cycles. He broke down all of his company’s work for clients into 6-week projects. His employees work for six weeks and then take two weeks to plan the next cycle and rest, which Joe says creates a better work-life balance for everyone. Joe firmly believes you can structure work to honor the company and the employees. We call that redeeming work!
Why is all this important? Joe lives by the adage, “You have to plan the good stuff because the bad stuff is going to happen anyway.” If he can do it, you can, too.
Resources from the episode:
- Joe Martin shares his #1 secret to help you discover your incredible future in his TEDxYouth talk here.
- Get to know Joe and the work he’s doing at Martin Creative here.
- Learn more about Joe’s work style in his book, “6-Week Cycles.”
- Connect with Joe Martin on LinkedIn.
- Follow Joe on Instagram.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: Joe Martin and Mark Wright
JOE MARTIN 00:01
Oh, it felt so disgusting, and I realized I was building the world that I left. Like, I, I’d left corporate to do my own thing. And now, as the business was starting to get bigger and we had a team of eight and we’re trying to get together and coordinate, I started going back to when we need to do nine to five, we need to do this and just all the same tactics that I’d found that I’d run away from because none of those tactics cared about me as an individual. They cared about me as a cog and not what I could get done.
MARK WRIGHT 00:33
This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work: the word, the place, and the way I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to BEATS WORKING, winning the game of work. This week on the show, wouldn’t it be cool to predict in advance an amazing year? I mean, to be able to describe in detail what the next 12 months will bring before they even happen. Chicago entrepreneur Joe Martin did just that, and he says you can do it too. It started when Joe decided to get more intentional with life. So, he wrote a list of cool things to do. Things as simple as taking his mom out on a date. That led to a TED Talk where he laid out his idea of naming your year. And all this put Joe on a journey dedicated not only to creating the future, but also a better present. Joe has owned and operated a creative agency for a number of years, and he started adopting six-week business cycles there. So, he broke down all of his company’s work for clients into six-week projects. His employees work for six weeks, and then take two weeks to plan the next cycle and rest, which Joe says creates a better work life balance for everyone. You might be wondering, why is all this important? Well, Joe lives by this adage, you have to plan the good stuff because the bad stuff is going to happen anyway. Here’s my conversation with Joe Martin. Well, Joe Martin, welcome to the BEATS WORKING podcast. It’s so good to have you here.
JOE MARTIN 02:12
So, thank you. Thank you for having me here all the way from Chicago.
MARK WRIGHT 02:15
That’s awesome. And, uh, so I would love to start our conversation. You’re an entrepreneur sort of first, and I want to start with that. And, uh, we’re also going to be talking about six-week cycles. Uh, something that you came up with that is really interesting. Um, six weeks on, two weeks off and cycles that you really believe are healthy and productive, not only for companies and productivity, but also when it comes to employees and their wellbeing. So,
JOE MARTIN 02:43
In our, in me, in me, in my wellbeing.
MARK WRIGHT 02:45
that’s awesome. So, Joe, take me back to some of the companies that you have started and where did those ideas come from? When you were a little kid, did you think, man, I should, I should start companies or where did, where did it all begin for you?
JOE MARTIN 02:59
Uh, I thought I was gonna be a rock star, Mark. So for the longest time, I thought I was gonna, I thought I was gonna make it out of Chicago with my band. We had the chance to tour across the US. Uh, I’ve had the opportunity to play at places like the House of Blues, Warped Tour, Metro in Chicago. And, and while it wasn’t us, it was other bands we played with at the time, like Plain White Teas and this little band that opened for us a while ago called Fall Out Boy that, you know, maybe, maybe some people had heard of at some point in time.
MARK WRIGHT 03:27
Wow. So, what, what did you play? What was your part in the band and what was the band called?
JOE MARTIN 03:31
Yeah. Guitar and vocals. And so, my first band was called PGS. My second band was called The Fold that I was with. And when all that fell apart, uh, during that time, I always felt like we had a better chance of making it as a band if we had a great web presence. And so I taught myself HTML, taught myself CSS and JavaScript, and learned how to create content. We would take video at every show and then post the video up on the website, interviewing people that were there, and just really, really early days of content back in 2000, 2001, probably at this time. And when all of it fell apart, I realized I knew how to make websites.
MARK WRIGHT 04:10
So, when you say fell apart, uh, Joe, what, what happened? Was it like an existential crisis or what, what, what caused the end of the band?
JOE MARTIN 04:20
It’s a moment. There’s one moment, Mark. Uh, we got blacklisted from Chicago’s premier venue called the Metro. And we were, we were not allowed to play there anymore. The bassist left shortly after that. The drummer left after that. And then it just fell apart.
MARK WRIGHT 04:37
So writing was on the wall.
JOE MARTIN 04:38
Yeah, we’ll save that one for another time. That’s a whole other podcast.
MARK WRIGHT 04:41
Yeah. Yeah. Well, what a cool thing though that you started to recognize the value of using technology to grow businesses. That, that’s, that’s a pretty fortuitous, uh, awakening that happened back then.
JOE MARTIN 04:52
Yeah. And, and didn’t realize it at the time, but my first business, I didn’t, I didn’t realize the band was it, but it’s, it’s human resources. It’s, it’s logistics, it’s inventory, it’s marketing. It was, it was every aspect of a business for so many years. And I think that’s what I found myself loving doing. Where, where all these moving parts coming together for this great experience. Whether that great experience is a music performance. These days, whether it’s a tour company. Whatever it is, just how do we bring people together for great experiences in the real world.
MARK WRIGHT 05:26
So, tell me about the businesses that you created and then I guess you sold, uh, did you sell both? Is that how it worked, Joe?
JOE MARTIN 05:34
Yeah. Yeah. First one was a digital agency. And so, we, we sold that off with the book of business to another agency as we made the leap to build our first product. And then we were able to use the runway from that sale to build the first product. And within six months of launching, we had that product acquired. By the largest food and wine reservation system in North America.
MARK WRIGHT 05:55
Wow. So, talk about what that product was. It had to do with reservations and businesses, right?
JOE MARTIN 06:00
Hyper, hyper-focused. Uh, so we approached the reservation systems. The reservation systems make money every time someone buys a ticket. They get a percentage of that ticket sale. So, we approached them and said, aren’t you going to sell more tickets when all of your clients have beautiful, mobile, responsive websites that are optimized for conversions? And they agreed, and so we, we teamed up with them. We were the first, uh, reservation system to do this, to offer this service of reservation plus website. And now, I think it’s eight years later, seven, seven years later since we, since we did that, every reservation system now offers a website solution. It has now become an industry standard since we’ve done that. Joe, tell me what you learned. Uh, a lot of people hope to start and grow and sell businesses like you have done. But what, what was some of the, uh, what were some of the big lessons that you learned through that process?
JOE MARTIN 06:57
I mean, I think the biggest one that sticks with me is it’s never over. There’s never an endpoint. Like I, I had these dreams, and I was younger of, I thought it’d be amazing to make money by building websites. And then I did that. And then I wanted more and then it was, well, I thought it’d be cool to work on $100,000 accounts. Wouldn’t that be great? And then I got the $100,000 accounts and realized what a pain in the ass they are. Didn’t want to deal with that. And so, I feel like I started learning early. Like it’s, it’s always going to be this next dream. It’s always going to be this, this next thing we want to go after. And if we don’t take that time now and in between to enjoy what we’re doing in the meantime, it’s never, it’s never, it’s never going to stop. There’s never a point where we just say, hey, Mark. You’re done. Congratulations. You’re done. You’re done with doing everything your mind ever wanted you to do. Go to the beach and have a Mai Tai. Like, it never happens. We have to make the decision to go to the beach and have a Mai Tai now, and do those things in between all this. And so that’s where I think it really became important of while working on these things, how do we prevent burnout? How do I, how do I not shit all over my team? How do I not just abuse people to move things forward for my noble mission?
MARK WRIGHT 08:09
Yeah. What was the biggest lesson you learned when you started managing people in these companies, Joe, in terms of, I mean, management is really a skill and some people are really good and some people, uh, are still learning.
JOE MARTING 08:22
Yeah. Let’s talk about this one. I think, I don’t know. I need to research this one still. I’m sure there’s been books written about it. Uh, but my belief is you do really good at your job and then you move up and you get to become a manager. And I truly think management is more of a horizontal position. It’s an entirely different skill set, like my, my degree is in design, and if you take a brilliant graphic designer and say, hey, here, now manage people, it’s a completely different skill set than what they were doing. They understand the technicals of it, but a manager’s job is to make sure everyone has what they need to do their job well. And if, if that’s not your specialty, this is, management is a horizontal position. This is, you’re contributing to the team, you’re not over people like a warlord or a capo in the mafia. This is just, we work together.
MARK WRIGHT 09:15
How often that happens, though, I mean, you look at, you know, companies where they’ll take someone who’s really good at sales and, oh, let’s make you the sales manager and let’s make you the general manager. And it’s like, well, that may or may not be good. So that, that acumen, that ability that they have in doing the job and doing it really well doesn’t necessarily translate into management, does it?
JOE MARTIN 09:36
No. And they, and they may be really well at writing. You’re great at writing and they could be writing blog articles and helping in that department and doing that, but we don’t, we don’t look at those skills. And it feels like it kind of feels like when you fall in love, Mark, and, and you find that love of your life and you decide to get married and then the world says, great master event planning now. What? This doesn’t even relate. I got to figure out where people are going to sit. Like totally different skill set.
MARK WRIGHT 10:05
Could totally relate to that. I love it. So, Joe, when I started doing some research on you, I came across a TED talk that you did, and I thought it was just riveting. Just fantastic. How did you get, uh, take us up to like how you decided to do a TED talk in the first place and where you got the idea for, for the talk?
JOE MARTIN 10:24
Yeah. I amazingly, I was asked to be the commencement speaker for my college’s graduation about eight years after I graduated. And so, I started putting together the talk for what that’d be. And I think when you get this really specific image in your mind of who’s going to be listening to you, and just what a day that is for students sitting there, and you’re ready to get the diploma and get the hell out. So, it’s kind of like, all right, what can I say, what, what can I, what can I put in here? And so, I wanted to kind of implant my idea that, that it would be cool to list this idea of naming this next big chapter in your life as you’re taking it. And so, I had the chance to deliver that talk to about 1600 people. And then after that, I was looking for more speaking opportunities. I came across the idea for TEDx, submitted my information for it, and couldn’t believe it. Couldn’t believe when they got back to me and said, yes, we, we love the idea of a topic on time travel. Come on in and present.
MARK WRIGHT 11:24
That’s so cool. So, if you guys listening, haven’t listened to the TED talk, what’s it, what’s it called Joe so that people can look it up on YouTube?
JOE MARTIN 11:31
Yeah, uh, you can Google Joe Martin, TED, and you’ll find it, or Discover Your Incredible Future Now is the name of the talk.
MARK WRIGHT 11:39
So, the premise of, of the talk really is to, I guess, just be intentional about how we live. Through being retrospective, I guess, so, so if people haven’t seen the talk, Joe, break it down because it’s just, it’s just beautiful, um, what, what you came up with. So, break it down.
JOE MARTIN 11:58
Yeah, we kind of got to look at ourselves on, uh, let’s time travel back a little bit to December 31st, 2022, at 11:59 PM and you’re sitting there and the year is about to turn and you’re looking back at all of 2022. And you’re saying, man, that was a really cool year. I would name this year this. Because it’s not, it’s not an intention. It’s, it’s not a, it’s not a goal that you’re setting when you name your year. It’s you giving it the chapter of a book. The same way that you would title a cool chapter of a novel is what I want you to title that year. Except instead of waiting to get to the end of the year to name it, just name it in advance. Throw it down in advance and see what happens. And Mark, this year it’s blowing my mind. Uh, I end, I end that TED talk by saying, uh, I don’t know if this works. I say, I don’t know if naming your years in advance is some great thing. And now, four years later, Mark, it works. It works. Uh, this year I named the year Yukio, which I got an article about that. Happy to share. You can find that on my site. Um, but it translates in Japanese to the floating world.
MARK WRIGHT 13:12
So why did you pick that? Yeah.
JOE MARTIN 13:15
Yeah. Uh, I got really into the great wave of Kanagawa, this little, this little fellow by Hokusai and I started researching more about just that painting and when it came from, where it existed. And what it was, was this 200-year period in Japan when they had shut out their borders and it saw a time of economic prosperity where the merchant class who’d been working so hard for so long. Finally started to rise and, and come into wealth. And it was a time when Kabuki theater was born. Uh, haikus were invented during this time. And prints, like the Great Wave off Kanagawa, was, for the first time, art was being purchased by people, by the regular people who could just afford these cool woodblock prints. And so, I, I set that intention for this year, of theater and, and poetry and music and travel and art. And I really wanted to see that. And somehow the universe interpreted it as my first time ever actually going to Japan this year and then being on a cruise in Japan. So literally floating around Japan is how the universe decided to interpret this, which I cannot complain about Mark. So please, please name your years to everyone’s name, name your years, please, please.
MARK WRIGHT 14:28
So, I want to dig deeper into that because it, it, I mean, you say it works, so take me back. You’ve done it for, you know, several years now. So, when you name the year, take us through that process. Like how, how do you come up with the name? How, and what, what do you hope the, you know, how it all works out and why does it work?
JOE MARTIN 14:48
Uh, I keep a little list as the year goes on and it’s called my, it would be cool to list. So, it’s, it’s not a bucket list. It’s not a set of goals that need to get done. It’s just things that, if I did, would be pretty cool. Uh, for example, I had on there, it would be cool to take an outdoor shower. Just thought it’s a whatever circumstances would lead to such a thing sounded rather amazing to have an outdoor shower when I have to shower inside every day. And so just stupid little things that I put down of things that I think would be cool to me. That they’re my own things. And then I look at some of those over the course of the next year. And so, before that year begins, I’m looking at what, what do I want to do next year? What, what will that year look like by the time it finishes? And try to just write some pieces of it in advance. And those, it would be cool too, is to pull out just, just three or four of those. And say, I’m gonna do these next year. This will be real cool, and I’m gonna get these things done. And then look at what you would name it. What title would we give that? When you get those things done.
MARK WRIGHT 15:51
Yeah, and when you first started that, did you do one cool thing a week for 52 weeks? Is that the first year?
JOE MARTIN 15:58
That’s what I tried.
MARK WRIGHT 15:59
What I was so touched by, one of the things on that list was to take your mom on a date. And I thought, that’s, that’s so beautiful that you would have the, you know, the, the thought that, you know, how cool would that be and how intentional that is. And, uh, so, so when you, that first year, when you had 52 cool things, give me an idea of what some of the stuff was on the list.
JOE MARTIN 16:24
Oh, uh, I still play ice hockey. And so, score a goal was on that list. Uh, dance. I thought it’d be cool to dance. Does I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t really like dancing. Are you, are you a dancer, Mark?
MARK WRIGHT 16:35
Well, I was in a dance competition once, and it’s available on YouTube. It was for a charity fundraiser. Uh, for, um, uh, housing nonprofit in Seattle. And, uh, I’ll tell you, uh, so they pair you up with a professional dancer and for five or six weeks, you train hard for the competition. And, uh, when I hear the song come on a playlist, uh, I literally have a twinge of panic. But it was one, it was one of the hardest things that I’ve ever done. And one of the most scary, thrilling, fun things. I don’t think I would ever do it again, but I’m glad I did it then.
JOE MARTIN 17:15
But now you’ve got it in you like, like Neo in the matrix, knowing Kung Fu. Mark can dance.
MARK WRIGHT 17:21
Yeah, the West, not sure when I’ll need the West Coast swing, but, uh, But I did for a little bit. Um, so take me, um, when we talked a few weeks ago, you said that 3 PM on a Friday. There was a turning point, uh, when you were, uh, in one of your businesses and one of your employees came up and said, hey, I’m done with what you asked me to do. What should I do now? And I just love this story because that turning point really led to what you’re doing right now, right?
JOE MARTIN 17:55
Yeah. Uh, what a great employee. Number one, who doesn’t want the person that’s going to come in and say, I finished my things. What do you have for me next? But the problem with that question is I didn’t, I didn’t know. What he needed to do next. I was unaware of the things that were necessary to move the business forward. And so, when he asked me what else you have for me, and I shuffled around looking for bullshit Just just bullshit. Oh, what do I have? What let me let me see what I got here that I can dig up for you And I realized there was nothing nothing I could give him at that moment that was gonna move the business forward more than the value he would get of going home and spending time with his four-month-old daughter. My! What a what a tyrant am I to say no two more hours here Sit there you you sit there cuz you I own your time. Like oh, oh, it felt so disgusting and I realized I was building the world that I left like I, I’d left corporate to do my own thing and now as the business was starting to get bigger and we had a team of eight and we’re trying to get together and coordinate, I started going back to when we need to do nine to five, we need to do this and just all the same tactics that I’d found that I’d run away from because none of those tactics cared about me as an individual. They cared about me as a cog and not what I could get done.
MARK WRIGHT 19:19
Hmm. Isn’t that human nature though, Joe? I mean, when you look at. You know, a lot of what Hollywood turns out as entertainment is a lot of sequels, a lot of, uh, you know, same old storylines. And it’s really interesting when you, you know, part of human nature is to not want to take risks. And maybe one of the reasons that we kind of fall back on that sort of you know, corporate, you know, institutional knowledge is that there’s safety in doing what we’ve done in the past. So, what, when you had that epiphany, I mean, how did, how did that turn into actual change, uh, in terms of your leadership in your company?
JOE MARTIN 19:56
Oh, terribly to start. Uh, it, it went terrible for the first three cycles, because it was, let’s work for six and we’ll take two weeks off to plan. And so, we took the two weeks off to plan, and then the cycle would begin, and nothing would go according to plan. Everything. And the team was like, Joe, we just wasted two weeks. And I was like, ah, we learned. We learned. Let’s keep going. And then the next cycle came, and we’d get about a week into it, and then a new project would come in. And then we’d have to re-prioritize because that new sale just happened, so we’d have to keep changing things. And so now at this point, it has been over six years of working in six-week cycles. So 30, 36? 36 cycles? I’m over 36 cycles of doing this. And each time, iterating and improving and seeing what we can do to get ahead. And one of the biggest changes that we needed to make to live this way, uh, was just having the value in ourselves of what are we really selling? And realizing that selling speed to delivery did not need to be part of our value. That it’s okay to tell someone, I can start on your project in a month and a half. And just start them at the same time. Get everyone working together. Pull it all together. And then let it all go. And then we get a little bit of time to relax.
MARK WRIGHT 21:18
So, this is also the name of your first book, Six Week Cycles. I’m curious, Joe, where did that idea come from?
JOE MARTIN 21:25
So, this was, I got to go to a presentation at Basecamp and hear from Jason Freed, the man himself, talking about how Basecamp uses Basecamp to build Basecamp. Fascinating title. Went in and he talked about how they ran the production cycles that way, and I feel like a more responsible person probably would have tried to schedule time with Jason, say, hey, can I learn more about this? Instead, I went back and I said, we’re doing it! And just whatever it took to figure out, which then was a years long trial and error of what needs to happen and ended up breaking it all the way down to just the business model and what we sell essentially that we started selling in six-week chunks of value. And now that helped us have the sales narrative we needed in order to get this stuff out there, deliver the results we needed to every time everyone knows what’s happening, the clients know where the projects are. My biggest pet peeve is a client saying, where is X? Never, never, I would never want to hear a client say, where is this thing? They should always know.
MARK WRIGHT 22:30
So, all of your projects then, or most of them, are on these six-week cycles?
JOE MARTIN 22:35
Agreed. Yes.
MARK WRIGHT 22:37
And so, when you, uh, are talking to companies about this, I mean, what was their reaction? Because this really doesn’t sound like the way that most, uh, businesses are run, uh, and I think, I think you’re right. I think speed to completion is, is like the way that most business, how soon can you start, let’s get it done. Uh, so what was the reaction when you started to roll this out to clients?
JOE MARTIN 23:02
Uh, no one notices. And it’s very much like when you set your price or when you set the price to value that you deliver. And whatever there is to compare it to is when we have an initial sales conversation with someone, we just say, hey, we can start on September 11th. That’s, that’s our next start date. Does that work for you? And that’s it. That’s, that’s all they need to know. And then by the time we finished that first six weeks, we say, hey, the next start date is going to be in two weeks. Let’s get the next part of the contract initiated. Let’s get the longer term in play here. And then this is how we’re going to continue to deliver on value for you in these cycles. And no one, no one complains. I think they like not hearing from us for two weeks. I think, because we have meeting after meeting with them every week, that then I think they get a little break as well from us, so.
MARK WRIGHT 23:48
And so, do your employees get to take time off during the two weeks, or is that more of a planning, uh, time?
JOE MARTIN 23:56
Uh, the only, yeah, the only task during that time is to plan the next six weeks. So just whatever it takes, however many meetings are necessary in order to get that stuff done. So, it usually falls a little heavier on the project manager during those two weeks to make sure all the tasks are organized, it’s on everyone’s sheet. We know every meeting for the next six weeks coming up, so we know in week four on Thursday we’re meeting to review this specific page for this client. So, all of that stuff kind of falls a lot on the project manager during that two-week break. But everyone else, flexibility, yeah, whatever you need. That’s the time to go get away if you need to go do something. This is the time to do it without messing anything up.
MARK WRIGHT 24:37
So, in the beginning, Joe, why was it that it didn’t work very well? What was, was it just not identifying exactly what needed to get done or underestimating how long it would take to get stuff done? What was in the beginning the problem?
JOE MARTIN 24:51
All of those, Mark. All of those. All of that. Humans are awful at estimating time, and we are terrible at breaking down tasks as well. That we, we see this when we work with clients on developing a customer journey is we can develop 20 steps to that customer journey in a two-hour meeting and then come back and find out there’s 50 steps that were missed. Like it’s, it’s just always like, yeah, breaking it down further and further. How do we need to quote this project? What are we delivering on and just looking at every little aspect of the biggest thing was just really pushing off that new business to start at the start of the next cycle. And then I found that once we kind of lock that cycle plan in place, it was protected from one more person who is the most dangerous person in the organization. And it’s me. It’s me. It’s me coming in two weeks into something and saying, ah, we got to change it up. Now we have to do this. No, no, no change the, and I don’t think that enough leaders recognize how one small action ripples through an organization and just messes with other people’s days and motivation and ability to get things done and feel fulfilled. That now, on a six-week cycle, if that developer gets all his stuff done by three o’clock on Friday, he knows he can go home. He’s done. You’re done. I don’t have more work for you. There are not a thousand other things looming over you. We already planned what needs to get done this cycle. Do your work. We done.
MARK WRIGHT 26:21
Yeah, and that commitment to the plan sounds like there’s some comfort there and, and, and like you said, I mean, so often, uh, we kind of change course midstream and that really is a setback, isn’t it?
JOE MARTIN 26:35
It is. And I don’t think it’s recognized just how many things that continues to set back and just how many people it really impacts. I think one of the greatest, or maybe the CEO’s worst disease. It’s easy disease. And we just think that everything is easy.
MARK WRIGHT 26:51
Come on, you guys, just, just get it done.
JOE MARTIN 26:54
It’s just a password-protection login system with a new form field. That’s going to check through JavaScript to make sure everything’s validated. Come on, it’s easy.
MARK WRIGHT 27:06
That’s awesome. Joe, when we talked a few weeks ago, you said something that I thought was really cool. Um, You said you have to plan the good stuff because the bad stuff is going to happen anyway. Where did that come from? And when did you start to really live that?
JOE MARTIN 27:22
A good friend of mine in the Netherlands kind of passed that, passed that one along and I think it’s something I was living by and hadn’t really had those words behind it. Even here, you say it back to me, Mark. It’s just, yeah, we know it. We know the bad stuff is coming. The bad stuff will happen. But how do we wedge in the good stuff? And for me, uh, that’s a big part of working in cycles, that it’s, it’s not just working in six week cycles. It’s been six years of living this way and, uh, dragging partners and family members into living this way with me as well. And so I’ve extended this just beyond work and really into life and into my relationship even.
MARK WRIGHT 27:59
So if somebody’s listening, Joe, and they want to start naming their year, they want to start living intentionally in terms of doing stuff that really matters because I think so often in life, we just kind of react to what happens and if we have time for doing fun stuff, or if we have time to do that stuff that really lights us up, then great, but, but so often we just are not intentional about creating that good stuff in our lives. So if, if somebody is listening and they really want to start down this path, how do they get started and what do they have to do to make it successful?
JOE MARTIN 28:36
Uh, put down three things on your, it would be cool to list. I think that’s a good, good spot to start. Just write down the three things that you think would be cool to do next year. And let’s see where it goes from there. And if you want to make one of those three, write down more, it would be cool twos. Okay. I’m going to stop you. I’m going to stop you.
MARK WRIGHT 28:58
Oh, that’s cool. Um, your new book that you’re working on. Is, well, the working title is the Predictable Workday. Um, give me an idea of what we can expect with that one, Joe.
JOE MARTIN 29:10
Uh, I think the unpredictable workday shits on people, , so I’m gonna make, lemme make this on the opposite of how do you, how do you make the workday actually better and more fulfilling for people?
MARK WRIGHT 29:22
Yeah. So break that down a little bit further. What, uh, I mean, I like, I like what you just said, but, but take us, take us a little deeper in terms of, of, uh, what you mean, it sounds like an extension of the first book, right?
JOE MARTIN 29:36
Uh, it is. So it kind of ties back cuz it’s, it’s now, how do you get to working in six week cycles? And so the first book is kind of about it and kind of some guides to get started. But over the last few years, the more we’ve learned and working with companies and internationally and identifying value and doing brand messaging is just realizing how important it is to really identify your value up front. And then we need to build from that value into the organization because price is fake, price is made up. And so what you pay people is also made up and it’s all about the distribution. And so when I see a company wasting just tens of thousands of dollars on SEO and not getting results, but they haven’t looked at conversion optimization and actually how they’re bringing in people, it just kills me because they’re not, they don’t know that real value and they’re kind of just shooting stuff out there everywhere. And then, and then I think that’s what leads to running people in the organization a little more ragged because now you’re making more money to test new ideas and you’re going in the wrong direction. And so really this book is about how do we get more predictable with that work. And it starts with, uh, what we help companies do, which is identify that value. What are they really hiring you for? That the, the best example is we had a company in California that is a cannabis delivery company we worked with. And the first sentence on their site was, delivery in 60 minutes. But when we dug into their target customer who’s 57-year-old Sharon, who lives in a wealthy suburb, who’s going to buy in bulk and goes to her mansion parties. Like, she doesn’t give a crap if her weed shows up in 60 minutes. It’s so low on what the value was of what she really wanted from that. But the culture at the company, every day, was run, run, run, go, go, go. 60 minutes, 60 minutes, 60 minutes, hurry, hurry, hurry. And it didn’t need to be that way. They weren’t aligned to the right value of what they were really selling. And so that’s a big part because companies need to first identify their value. That’s what helps you then get that more predictable workday and that predictable work stream of then selling what you’re worth instead of just trying to sell time and being fast.
MARK WRIGHT 31:48
And it sounds like really tapping into your customer base is, is you’ve really got to figure out what motivates them, right? I mean, cause it sounds like, you know, Domino’s came up with that, you know, the delivery model of within 30 minutes or it’s free, but you know, when pizza gets cold, that kind of makes sense. But yeah, so, so knowing your customers and digging deep, it sounds like that’s a big part of it too.
JOE MARTIN 32:14
Yep. And it’s going to be necessary to stand out the more forward we go. All the, all the tools for advertising and doing SEO, everyone has access to those tools now. Like now the way to stand out is going to be through your messaging, going to be through that better targeted outreach. And I think that then that’s going to lead this way to if companies can have more empathy for their customer, perhaps they can have more empathy for their employees as well.
MARK WRIGHT 32:41
So Joe, you, you’re, you’re committed to making the workplace a happier place to be. Um, you know, if you could wave a magic wand and just really start to get other business, there it is, get other business owners and managers to understand one or two things. Uh, what would it be?
JOE MARTIN 33:02
There’s one, there’s, there’s just one thing that I’d really want anyone listening to this to take back and start doing with their organization. Uh, and it’s something we do every Friday when we’re on cycle. And it is just a one-hour checkout meeting for up to five people. And in this meeting, we spend two minutes in silence at the beginning of the meeting. I set a timer, you set a timer for two minutes. And everyone looks back on their week, and we write down things that went well that week. And then we share them. And then we set another two-minute timer and we look back and write down everything that didn’t go well that week and we shared that. I think that one little meeting is so crucial to building empathy in the workplace and having a spot to listen to people. We don’t listen to employees. And I learned through doing this that so many times I don’t need this, this daily stand up of where a project is. I trust you to get your job done. I trust you to move the project along. As we discussed at the beginning of the cycle, I really seem to know what got in the way. What, what didn’t go well this week for you? Is it something at home? Is it something here? Is there something we can do about it? Like, how do I, as a manager, how do I then provide the best environment for you to do your job? And this one little meeting gives so much insight to take away of what’s really important to people at that time in their life.
MARK WRIGHT 34:24
You told me something when we talked a few weeks ago. And that is, we need to focus on what’s important, time and attention, and it forces us to think of time as a resource. Um, what did you mean by that?
JOE MARTIN 34:38
Ooh, uh, we know it’s the only thing we’re not getting more of. Like, we’re well aware of this, between time and attention. Like, come on, we say you have to pay attention. It’s a currency! We talk about it as a currency! And that those are the things we need to reserve for ourselves. My big focus on this side was, uh, out of all the things that I could do for my employees. Pet insurance, paid holidays, vacation time. Time is the biggest thing. Just giving them time is the best thing that I can give them to do whatever they need to do with it. In my heart, I hope they use it to meet with their family more. Maybe reach out to that one family member who’s a little bit estranged that you don’t have time to reach out for. Maybe you just hit up your mom and take her on a date. Whatever it is, just do it, do it during that time, please.
MARK WRIGHT 35:31
Were there any mentors, Joe, or managers, bosses, owners that you dealt with in your younger years that, that really had a, an impact on you? Or is this journey more of a self-discovery kind of journey in terms of like, oh, that happened. Uh, and I learned from it. So what, what would you say was the biggest influence on getting you to this point? Cause you know, I feel like more businesses are, are coming to this place of awareness that especially as it’s getting harder to find employees. Um, so, so where did that come from?
JOE MARTIN 36:04
Uh, I think from being a, being a kid. And the same way that every child kind of wants to revolt against their parents a little bit. And so for me, uh, my parents were entrepreneurs. They ran a very successful printing business for 32 years. But to me, it was my dad not around a whole lot. It was him having a cot at the shop because sometimes he needed to stay there so he could run jobs overnight. And I think that a lot of times, you know, it was him going in every weekend. And it was me looking at how do I do the opposite of that. Like how do, how, how is it not that I don’t, I don’t wanna be that. I don’t, I don’t want it to be that way. And I think that a lot of us see that, and this is why we always get cultures going back and forth. We don’t wanna be our parents, then we wanna be our parents, so we don’t wanna work nine to five, then we build a nine to five. Like it just keeps going back and forth on that. But it was, I think it’s that idea of this, this past version of me that wants more time to spend with my dad back then. I think it’s the current version of me that wants time to enjoy my life while I have this breath and tomorrow is not guaranteed. And then it’s for the future version of me that I’m trying to build a little more time for so he can still enjoy his life too. So all three of us.
MARK WRIGHT 37:15
That’s awesome. So what’s next for you? The new book you’re working on, when does it come out?
JOE MARTIN 37:22
Uh, we’re looking at still about a year and a half on that one. So still researching, uh, looking to speak with more executives at companies that are over 10 million in revenue. And trying to get some more interviews and insight there for a little more of my research before I, before I pull it all together.
MARK WRIGHT 37:38
So, Joe, you’ve been at the intersection of computers and technology and business for a long time. Where are we in that continuum? Because, you know, most of what I do in terms of finding businesses, I have my my cell phone and I just, you know, mobile has been such a, a transformative part of how people find businesses and how people find products and research products. Where are we in terms of technology? Um, and where are we headed? What’s next in that? Because you’re right until we have websites that really worked well and when we had mobile devices that could actually work well with those websites, then it really became a huge thing. So I’d love perspective because this is, you’ve lived this, this intersection for so long.
JOE MARTIN 38:25
Yeah. I’m the, I’m the oldest millennial and I fall into this zennial category as well, which are the group of people who grew up with, uh, without technology and then technology was introduced and then you have it. And the question was kind of, where are we now with it? Uh, it’s gross. We’re in a real gross place with it, Mark. And we have been for a while. Uh, ever since it was Target. It was when Target, there was that story years ago about how Target had sent the promotion materials to a young girl about her new baby who hadn’t told her parents she was pregnant yet. And that Target had put this together based on looking at the things she was buying. And then decided to start sending her baby promotional materials because they put it together that she was pregnant based on the data. Those tools have just become more and more available for everyone. And it’s just gotten so saturated. And I think what we’re really going to start seeing pop through next are just real world experiences. I think we’re going to get back to connecting more in the real world and hopefully digital plays a lower part. I feel optimistic that the metaverse isn’t taking off as quickly as they hoped, and I get this little gleam of hope when I find my 12 year old niece not playing on her iPad as much anymore, because that’s something kids did.
MARK WRIGHT 39:46
Where do you stand on, yeah, that’s, that’s cool, Joe, where do you stand on, uh, working in person, working remotely? How have you dealt with that as a company?
JOE MARTIN 39:58
I stand with it on intention. As long as we have reason, good reason, for getting people together in person because there’s a collaborative thing that we’re working towards, towards a specific goal, yes, let’s get together in person and work. Just because you overspent on rent, and now that you paid for this place, you want to justify it by making me come back into the office? Ah, not my problem, give me my time! I have friends right now that were called back into the office. But they, there’s construction going on. So there’s a satellite parking lot set up. So they’re forced to go in, park in the satellite parking lot, then catch a shuttle over to their office. And now they just got to notice that there’s break-ins happening at that remote parking lot. And they’re forcing them to come in, park in this thing to be there when they don’t need to be. The company was very productive this entire time of working remotely. But because they paid for that space, it’s time to cut into your life, cut into your work time, jump back in the car for that hour-and-a-half commute. Get your ass in here.
MARK WRIGHT 41:03
For those just listening, Joe fell to the floor just then. That’s a big, that’s a big issue here in Seattle. I mean, uh, you know, we’re seeing a huge transition because, uh, you know, let’s face it. A lot of companies spend a lot of money for big skyscrapers in downtown Seattle and Bellevue just to the east. And, uh, now there’s a real, a real struggle to figure out. You know, do we really all have to be together all of the time? And I think there’s just, uh, the answer to that isn’t, hasn’t been sorted out yet, but we’re certainly seeing a lot of companies giving up their leases or at least the, you know, staying physical all the time is not an option that they’re really comfortable with at this point.
JOE MARTIN 41:45
No, and I think it’s a gorgeous thing and for some of the work that we do in the tourism industry, uh, we’re helping tour operators start to position their services towards these corporate groups. Because we know that these culture-building experiences are now on the rise. We got the distributed team. We need a way to bring them together because we still need to get together people just with intention, with purpose, with a reason.
MARK WRIGHT 42:09
Joe, anything else you want to add that I haven’t touched on? I think this is super inspirational. I’m gonna write down my three things. Um, and it just made me think, um, I’m going to a drumming camp in Germany in September and, uh, I, you know, I, I didn’t, I didn’t set out to write a thing of, you know, a list of things to do. I’m just getting a little older now and I’m thinking, man, if I don’t get, if I don’t do some of this stuff, I may regret it later. So I’m really inspired. I’m really inspired by the idea of naming your year and really taking deliberate action.
JOE MARTIN 42:42
And yeah. And yeah, please, please start that list and don’t worry about how to do it. This is the other thing as well. I realized just once you write it down. The universe takes care of it. I will, Mark, I will have a video coming out on my Instagram soon. I, it was cool to take an outdoor shower and would be happy to share that video.
MARK WRIGHT 43:03
That’s awesome. I love it. I can’t wait. I can’t wait. Well, Joe Martin, this has been such a pleasure talking with you and, uh, I love how you’re redeeming work through your work cycles, um, and also just by understanding the value of time on, on all sides of the equation. So keep up the good work and it’s been an honor to have you on the show, man. Thank you.
JOE MARTIN 43:27
Thank you. And thank you for doing this, for, for even helping to tell stories like mine, I think is just such an incredible piece of having the BEATS WORKING podcast and being able to share these ideas and for you to have good conversations with people who pull this stuff out and share it with everyone listening. It’s, it’s incredible. So thank you. Thank you, Mark.
MARK WRIGHT 43:47
You are welcome. It’s all about the learning. And, uh, so this has been fun. Joe, thanks. I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. And if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING, where we are winning the game of work.
