Jerilyn Brusseau is a legend in the baking industry. She created the recipe for the world’s most famous cinnamon roll, the Cinnabon. But you might not know that she also started PeaceTrees Vietnam, a non-profit that has safely disposed of more than 150,000 unexploded bombs in that country.
Jerilyn is an exceptional woman who has worn many hats in her life—bakery owner (Brusseau’s in Edmonds, WA), food consultant, humanitarian, and non-profit founder.
It all started in her grandmother’s kitchen on a farm in Montana, but it was a profound tragedy that led Jerilyn to the most important work of her life. She is proof that getting up after getting knocked down may be the most important thing a human being can do.
Resources from the episode:
- Connect with Jerilyn Brusseau on LinkedIn.
- Watch Brusseau’s TEDxSeattle talk here.
- Learn more about Peace Trees Vietnam and the work they do here.
- Read more about the founding story of PeaceTrees Vietnam here.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: Jerilyn Brusseau and Mark Wright
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 00:00
So, we had about 20 people around this table, Americans and Vietnamese, and everyone was in tears at the finish, including the pilots, because we could never have imagined, really, that we could be around the table sharing our most painful losses, and knowing that our new friends knew every single thing we were saying, because they had them too.
MARK WRIGHT 00:34
This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work – the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to BEATS WORKIN. On the show this week, making good out of tragedy through work. She created the recipe for the world’s most famous cinnamon roll, the Cinnabon. She also started a nonprofit that has safely disposed of more than 150,000 unexploded bombs in Vietnam. Jerilyn Brusseau is an exceptional woman who’s worn a lot of hats in her life. Bakery owner, food consultant, humanitarian, and nonprofit founder. It all started in her grandmother’s kitchen on a farm in Montana. But it was profound tragedy that led Jerilyn to the most important work of her life. She is proof that getting up after getting knocked down may be the most important thing a human being can do. Jerilyn Brusseau, welcome to the BEATS WORKING podcast, my friend. It’s so good to see you. It’s so great to have you here.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 01:43
Thank you, Mark. It is such an honor to be here with you. Thank you so much for inviting me.
MARK WRIGHT 01:49
Well, we have a lot of ground to cover, Jerilyn. We’ve been good friends for a long time, so I know quite a bit about you, but I think I’m still going to learn something new about you today. Um, we’re going to talk about your life as a baker. Um, your life as a food consultant, as the person who designed the Cinnabon cinnamon roll, the world’s best cinnamon roll, that’s, that’s you. Um, and then also we’re going to be talking about your amazing nonprofit called Peace Trees Vietnam, which is working to rebuild, uh, the most heavily bombed areas of, of Vietnam after the war. So, Jerilyn, I don’t think I’ve asked a guest where they would like to start, but I think I would like to ask you, where would you like this interview to begin? There’s so much to cover.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 02:33
I’d love to start in my grandmother’s kitchen because that’s really where it all started.
MARK WRIGHT 02:39
Okay, let’s start there. Was this in Montana?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 02:42
Yes. My mother’s mother, my grandmother, was an extraordinary person and baker and her home was just filled with love and then one step into the kitchen and her home was, I mean, it was just incredible. She baked for the local restaurants and cafes. She baked rolls and pies, and I was a baby. My father was in the Marine Corps. He was in the South Pacific for three years. My mother worked in the local bank in Lewistown, Montana. And My grandmother, every morning, when she started her baking, she would set me on the corner of her pie table, and she’d put these little bits of dough into my hand, and I think it was a genetic transfer. Because I sort of grew up with her spirit, with her soul, with her hands, with everything that she made was just so delicious, but it was more than that. It was so nourishing. And I had this dream, um, from the time I was a little kid, I wanted to have a cafe that would be like my grandmother’s kitchen. And that one day did happen, uh, in 1978, yes. My family, my, my kids were 9, 10, and 11. And um, my husband and I, we found this old beaten up gas station in downtown Edmonds, not something you would see today, but it was an old Shell station that was built in 1946 and it had turned into this just really eye sore in the community and out in front of this old gas station. So, this is downtown Edmonds at 5th and Dayton and the, um, the canopy had been pushed over all the gas pumps were laying on their side, piles of rubble everywhere. And the sign on the door said for rent. And I went up to the door to, to write down the phone number to call the for rent person. And this giant, I mean, really big black Labrador just went to the door. So, it turned out that the, that the body of the gas station had been being used to build guns and make and grind gun barrels. And all the glass on the old, you know, old falling apart gas station was black from all, you know, from all the gunpowder. So, I called the gentleman, he was quite elderly, down, down, downtown Seattle, and we went down and talked to him, and we agreed on a, on a price, uh, a rental price. And he said, I’ll, I’ll do the outside cleanup. It really needs it. We started in on the inside, that was, um, I think that was in sort of December of, um, 1977. And we opened Brusseau’s Cafe and French Bakery and Cafe, um, on the 28th of March in 1978. And it was just like something out of, I mean, it was out of, out of one’s imagination for me because it really happened, and we found Rainier Ovens had, had really old deck ovens, which is what I like to bake in. So, we had like 12, 12 decks and that was good because we had a lot of customers, and that’s how we all began. And one of the, the spirit of Brusseau’s was that what I held in my heart was that each person, as they come in the door and they decide what they’re going to have to eat or take home or sit in the, sit in the, in the lovely cafe room, that they’ll feel much better when they leave. I just held that, that it was really a place of soul and nourishment and caring. And it was an incredible experience. And we made my grandmother’s cinnamon rolls every single day. I mean, sometimes hundreds of them.
MARK WRIGHT 07:08
So, growing up in your grandmother’s kitchen, Jerilyn, you had this tactile, emotional experience and connection to food.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 07:16
Yes.
MARK WRIGHT 07:17
And, it seems like as, over the years, I’ve had a lot of contact with various chefs, and food really is their language of love, and they’ll give you the best portion of whatever they’re making, and they’ll, they’ll have you have the first bite, and, and it’s just this universal thing that, that people like you, food is not just a thing, it’s a language, right? It’s a language of love.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 07:41
It is. It’s a language of love, and I think it’s also a lifestyle. So, when you come to my kitchen, when you bring, when you come over, you and your wife come over to make cinnamon rolls, um. You know, everything here is ready to roll for, we could bake, I mean, because it’s designed so that we could have nine or ten people baking at the same time in here, but in theory, it’s just a small cottage. But it’s all planned out and people love coming here. I was, one year I was, I trained for a lot of half marathons and, um, one year the coaches kept saying, when are you bringing us cinnamon rolls? When are you bringing us cinnamon rolls? So, I said, okay. Here’s the deal. When we finish this next half marathon, all the coaches come to my house. So, they came like 12, 12 of them came and it was partners. So, they, six couples made, they all made their own bowl of cinnamon roll dough, let it rise, rolled it, baked it. We had a lot of cinnamon rolls, and they were, there again was the language. It’s the language. It’s also like the soul of love because they had their hands in the dough and they think, wow, I didn’t ever know I could do something like this. Really, I could just put my hands in dough?
MARK WRIGHT 09:02
What’s the biggest mistake people make, Jerilyn, when they’re baking?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 09:06
Well, that would be me in that category. You know, I’m in that category too. Uh, forgetting, forgetting, uh, uh, one ingredient. Like, um, a classic for cinnamon roll dough or, or any, like, rising dough is that yeast or sourdough starter is, is the gasoline. It just gets, gets it rolling. However, salt is the break. So even the tiniest bit of salt slows down the rising. And if it’s not in there, the dough will go everywhere, and it will not be very delicious.
MARK WRIGHT 09:51
Yeah. And when you say gas, it’s like literally gas. It’s the CO2 coming off the yeast.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 09:56
It is. Yeah.
MARK WRIGHT 09:58
How did Rich Komen come to, uh, into your life? Rich was the founder of Cinnabon. And I have a friend, and I told you this the other day, Jerilyn, I have a friend who sometimes plans her air travel to the airports that have a Cinnabon because she loves Cinnabon so much. But how did Rich, was Rich a customer at the, uh, at the cafe in Edmonds? Or how did that happen?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 10:22
Oh, this, that’s a really wonderful question. So, in January, of this is 1985 episodes. Um, one of the customers came in and said, oh, she said, oh, hello, Jerilyn. I’m my husband is the senior vice president of, of, uh, restaurants unlimited. And Rich is going to have an evening for his, all of his restaurant managers in his home. And he would, he would really like to invite you to come and do a kind of, um, three-dimensional presentation of all the local food that you find. Because we made almost everything locally. Uh, well, I mean, we bought, we’ve found ingredients locally. Our, there was a creamery at Monroe that made for us 300 pounds of unsalted butter every 14 days. I would drive out.
MARK WRIGHT 11:16
So locally sourced, really good stuff.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 11:18
Oh, top of the, top. Yeah, tops. Okay. So, she said, could, could you and I talk about this? And I said, sure. So, she and I talked about it and then we had a really creative person on our staff. And so, she and I, we just gathered up, you know, all that we had, the things that we had with the vegetables, the winter fruits, this, cause this was January, all the things we could do that would really portray the Puget Sound area on the ground, on the trees, in the water, in the chicken house, all these things, and, um, the people came in and they loved it. It was wonderful. And that’s how I met Rich Komen. He was there leading this, this, his manager’s meeting. And the next thing I knew, this was January, it was mid-August, and I was cooking the cook had called in sick, so I was cooking in this tiny little kitchen in the back and this one little phone and a little steno pad, that’s all I had. And the phone rang, and so I thought I better answer it. I answered the phone and I Brusseau’s, this is Jerilyn and this voice says Jerilyn, this is Rich Komen. How’d you like to make the world’s greatest cinnamon roll? And I said, let’s do it. So, we did. That’s how we started.
MARK WRIGHT 12:38
What a crazy idea. I mean, to, at that time, uh, it, it seems, today it seems like a logical thing because there are so many little specialty restaurants at airports and malls and stuff like that. But at the time, well, that was kind of a novel idea. What was your first reaction?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 12:54
Oh, I was totally excited. I really think the world of Rich always have, always, always will. He’s 90 now. Um, he’ll be coming, he’s in Hawaii. He’ll be coming back, and he lives on, um, he lives on San Juan Avenue now. Um, he is with, at no doubt, a genius on multiple levels and working with him was one of the greatest, truly greatest experiences of my life. Because he could have, he had a several track mind and he could be calling from those parts while he was speaking. It was just amazing. So, they transformed the, um kitchen at Restaurants Unlimited headquarters, which was just beautiful and they, uh, invited the chef to go to another location while we were baking for the next few minutes.
MARK WRIGHT 13:52
So, this is when you’re working out the recipe?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 13:54
Yeah. So we started, we started from zero. We started with of course, we started with my grandmother’s cinnamon roll and that’s how it began. And we had cinnamon school, we, um, from one of the spice companies so we could learn which was the best cinnamon for us to use, which was turned out to be from Sumatra. Uh, everything was top drawer. We loved it and everything was going well. Every day I would get up, get my kids off to school there, pretty much in the, uh, early high school. And, um, I would go in and open Brusseau’s, get things ready and, um, get lunch all set. And then about 10:30, I would just zoom down to Restaurants Unlimited and start my day down there because they like to have their tasting rounds at five o’clock in the evening and have the entire staff come down. It was so much fun. And so, I started, we started with the rolls. They were, the question was, so this is a very important, uh, piece of developing Cinnabon because Rich was really committed to the fact that the cinnamon rolls would bake in 16 minutes. Well that’s not, that’s half of what cinnamon rolls typically bake for, bake. And he said he wanted to use convection ovens. Well, convection ovens have blowers and it’s really hot and so that’s a, that’s a kind of challenge to have a very tender top crust. We went through a lot of changes. And, um, this, this one day I want to tell you this little vignette, um, because other people in town knew we were working on this. And there was a bakery in town and the head baker called Rich and said, well, why don’t you come on over? We, we’ve got something we think you’d like, you know, we think you’d like to see the cinnamon rolls we’ve been working on. So, we, we drove over there, and we went in and there were all these, and this was 1985. There were only men bakers, many of them, and, um, they had these big cardboard boxes of cinnamon rolls and, and, uh, they said, well, sit down and have one. And we said, I think we had a little moment with them and, you know, we each all had one I think. And then, um, we thanked them for the visit, and we went out and got in the car and said, oh my gosh. I mean, that’s nowhere close to what we’re thinking about. So um, we were driving back, we were driving back from that bakery back to Restaurants Unlimited and he said, what do you think it is? What do you think it is that’s keeping the dough from being just the texture we want it to be? And I said, I, I think it’s something from my grandmother. I think it’s something absolutely from my grandmother. And, and, so, I was just pondering as we drove along and I said, rich, I’ve got it. I’ve got it. Could we just swing into the store here? So, we swung into the store here because I thought about what would my grandmother have had in her cupboard of, of her farm, ranch, kitchen that had no wa running water, no heat get, you know, wood burning stove. Why would she, how would she do it? How would she protect it? And I just got this out there, idea. And we went back, went back to the, went back to, to the Restaurants Unlimited kitchen. Dove in, mixed the dough, presto, it worked.
MARK WRIGHT 17:32
So, the secret ingredient is probably part of a non-disclosure agreement that Jerilyn Brusseau has signed. So, what I’m getting at though is that, um, if you teach me how to make a cinnamon roll, we 16 minutes. I can bake it for 30 or whatever and it’ll still, it’ll still come out kind of the way.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 17:55
You know, the recipe that I use all the time is my gram’s recipe. So, I didn’t need to add anything to those. You know, I didn’t need to add any like helpers or, um, cushions, I would say. It was more like a cushion.
MARK WRIGHT 18:09
So, you stopped at the store. You got this secret ingredient, that’s in an NDA. Cinnabon goes on to open Rich, opens restaurants all over the place. How big is Cinnabon today, Jerilyn?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 18:23
I think they’re in 65 countries.
MARK WRIGHT 18:25
Oh my goodness. What an amazing claim to fame.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 18:30
It’s incredible.
MARK WRIGHT 18:31
And Rich is no longer owner. Did they sell at some point?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 18:34
They did, yes. Mm hmm. And Greg. But Greg is still very involved in Cinnabon. Um, Greg is
MARK WRIGHT 18:40
That’s his son?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 18:41
Rich’s oldest son. And he has a wonderful bakery in Minneapolis. And I think he has one in Spokane. And he’s very involved in the franchise group. So, he’s right there.
MARK WRIGHT 18:51
You must be so proud though, Jerilyn, when you think of what you created for the world, you know, your grandmother’s amazing cinnamon rolls that you experienced as a child are now being enjoyed all over the world, literally all over the world.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 19:05
Yes, literally.
MARK WRIGHT 19:06
What does that feel like? What does that feel like for you?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 19:09
It’s really lovely. I mean, I just think she was such an extraordinary, warm-hearted person that I think that it’s just, for me, it’s like a rhythm. Like, it’s something that just became a rhythm and her love is, is in it. I mean, I feel like her love is in everything I bake because she was so present for me.
MARK WRIGHT 19:35
You’ve been a food consultant for many years, and you’ve done all kinds of projects where you take a recipe and kind of like Cinnabon, you scale, um, what, what could be a home recipe. You scale it to an industrial level. Um, gosh, you told me a while back about, you know, an ancient grains that, uh, somebody, you know, uh, is growing and you created bread, uh, recipes for these ancient grains. And so, in your little kitchen, you’re, you’re whipping up all kinds of things. What, what’s, give me an example, Jerilyn, of, of one of those projects, uh, uh, where you’re acting as a food consultant that you’re, that you’re proud of, that you can talk about. I know that some stuff you can’t.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 20:16
Sure. I’ve, I’ve done a, quite a bit of sauce making as well, which is really a nice balance. So, I was with a company called SIBO Naturals and Monterey Gourmet Foods for six years.
MARK WRIGHT 20:28
I’ve seen that at Costco, right?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 20:30
Yes. Uh huh. Yeah. And my friend owned Costco. And they brought me in when they were selling the company and asked me to take over the product development. So, I had six years of like, um, fig and olive tapenade. And so, I did a lot of spreads on the bread. So, when you come over, I’ll make sure to have spreads for the bread. That we, um, so I, when someone asks me, well, for example, um, The Burlington school district was very interested in learning about our Skagit Valley whole grain rolls. They wanted to have those for the, for the, the lunch line for the kids in high school, junior high and high school. So, they would, um, so I, I had the recipe, you know, I had a, had a recipe for a family. And, um, so I, we did like 50-pound batches of dough. And. It was quite, I went several times, I would drive up to the Anacortes School District and they had, they have a wonderful kitchen there, so I would get to know the bakers and, and go through the whole, their whole section because they have everything that’s quite, uh, mechanized, which is great. And it was, became a great success, I was really happy about that. To know that the farmers in the Skagit Valley were growing the grain, the school, the school district wanted to have it for the students to have more nutrition. And Kevin, uh, Cairnspring Mill, Kevin’s the founder, co-founder and the CEO of Cairnspring Mill in the Skagit Valley. And um, by that time I was working with this, with, with, um, Cairnspring Mill as well, which I am still. Um, so it’s, there’s just so much interconnection from the farmer and the harvest. And the grain, and the client, and the person mixing.
MARK WRIGHT 22:34
Yeah. And that’s the best food, right? The food that comes from a farm nearby, not sitting on a truck and going four or five states away. That’s really cool, Jerilyn. Well, I want to shift gears a little bit now, Jerilyn, and talk about Peace Trees Vietnam. There’s a huge backstory to this that involves your husband, it involves your brother, um, so let’s begin with where the idea of this nonprofit that came from to help rebuild war torn Vietnam, take us back.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 23:05
Thank you, Mark. On January 6th, 1969, my brother U.S. Army Lieutenant Daniel Cheney had been in Vietnam for exactly 16 days. He was an assault helicopter pilot. He went through many, many, many different schools, uh, for the advanced helicopter pilots. He’d been in the country for 16 days. He and his copilot, Walter Kozlowski, who was sitting in the back of the helicopter, they had the big guns in the back, and in the front was the person with the small guns. And they flew in teams of two, there was a scout pilot that flew ahead of them. So, the scout pilot was watching, watching, watching everywhere. And then the, the assault helicopter was right behind them. So, to, to support them. And suddenly they saw their partner, the scout pilot tumble out of the sky end over end over end and crash upside down in a canal. And my brother, Dan, and Walter, his copilot, went in, all the way in, right down to the wreckage and put down suppressive fire all around to allow the emergency team to get in there and pull this gentleman. He was in the helicopter upside down to pull him out. And thanks be to God, he lived. And in the process, my brother, Dan, And Walter gave their lives.
MARK WRIGHT 24:44
So, they were shot down.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 24:45
They were shot down. Their bodies came home. So that was one very, um, courageous act as well. And when I learned this, it was 10 o’clock in the morning on that same day, the 6th of January and my husband came in the back door of the house and he said, I saw his tears and he said, Dan’s been killed. And I, I knew I, I’d heard it on the radio actually. And I stood there for a few minutes and all I could think of were my parents, my parents losing my brother. I could hardly imagine the pain for them. And I suddenly realized my parents were joining this, you know, half of the universe of American families who’d lost their sons and daughters, fathers, fathers, mothers, so many people. And then all those who had horrific injuries that would never be able to really live their lives fully again. I wanted to somehow cushion my parents, you know, there was no cushion. And at the same minute, this is all took place in a minute. In the same moment, I suddenly realized, oh my gosh, the other half of the universe, the Vietnamese families losing their pilots, their soldiers, their kids, their grandparents. I mean, all of a sudden, it just came, they came right together. The two universes came right together. I’m still standing at the back door. Someday, American families like mine must find a way to reach out to the Vietnamese people, to honor their losses as well as our own, and begin building bridges of trust and understanding. And I didn’t know how, how that would ever happen. I didn’t ever tell anyone. I sort of put a little something behind my ear that was where the seed was planted. And I never, I never, ever talked about it with anyone. Our family went through a lot. We made it through. It was not easy. My children grew up and up and up. We opened Brusseau’s Baker Cafe. Um.
MARK WRIGHT 27:35
And Dan had just met the love of his life right before he was deployed, right?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 27:39
Yeah. Yeah. They, they had been sweethearts growing up because our parents were best friends. But they had, when Dan came home from flight school to have some, you know, uh, furlough, it happened that she, that Gail was living with my parents and going to Western and at college in Bellingham. So, they had this time together and that was that. I mean, they were just, they adored each other, and they had just had a big engagement party before Dan left. So it was, it was really painful for everyone.
MARK WRIGHT 28:12
And Jerilyn, what I think is so impactful about what you’re saying, and I’ve wondered this over the years, that we hear numbers from wars and conflicts that X number of people have been killed. You know, in Vietnam, it was north of 60,000 lives, American lives were lost. And, and it seems to me that unless you’ve experienced that loss, you don’t understand the gravity of, of, of the loss. You know, 60,000. So, this beautiful human being, your brother, uh, gone and the enormous void and pain for an entire family and community, multiply that by more than 60,000 and it’s just almost incomprehensible.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 29:02
Yeah. It’s actually 68,000 plus. It was incredible. Then life went on. I had the restaurant all those years, 16 years, and then I had met my husband to be. I would, I would say I met my diplomatic partner, which I would say first, because he was definitely my diplomatic partner. I didn’t know anyone.
MARK WRIGHT 29:34
I saw him, uh, shaking the hand of, of, uh, a president and some of the stuff that you sent over. So, he, tell, tell us about, it’s Danaan, right?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 29:41
Danaan Parry. I met him working in the Soviet Union in 1986. I’d started a peace program called U.S., USSR Culinary Diplomacy named Peace Table. And Danaan, Danaan was taking kids from all over the U.S. and other countries to Russia and to the Soviet Union to begin building friends. And that’s how I met him. He lived on Bainbridge Island. I lived on Edmonds. That’s how we met. And I knew him for probably three or three years or so. And then, then we could see that it was time for us to be together. And so, we did teach and coaching of different types of conflict resolution in many different countries. And then, um, we, we were in Berlin, Germany, and there was a, it was a, uh, the, the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II on that day in July. And people, 300 people came from all over Europe because they wanted to tell their stories. And one of the gentlemen who started this was he wanted to make peace with the Germans before he died. So, it was just incredible. This. It’s coming together in peace. And the weekend was over, we zipped out to the airport to get on the plane to fly back to Seattle. And a flight attendant came down the aisle and she was holding the Herald Tribune. The print leapt off the page, U.S. normalizes with Vietnam. And Danaan was sitting on my right and I just had this little, you know, caring nudge and I said, it’s time to go, he said, okay. So, by the time we got back to Seattle, the whole plan was made that, um, because he had a huge passion because of his, all of his time in the, um, with the Atomic Energy Commission and he knew a lot about explosives. And he said, we, we must remove landmines and bombs, we must sponsor the clearance of landmines and bombs to begin building life back. So that was the, um, that was on the 15th of July and 1995. And we landed in Hanoi on January 6th of 19, six months later almost to the day. And the Vietnamese leaders welcomed us like they just, they welcomed us. The gentleman was standing on the front porch of this lovely embassy row building, it was called the Union of Friendship Organizations, and he said, come in, come in, it’s time to close the past and open the future. And we said, oh, that’s amazing. I mean, I had no idea, but I, I wasn’t thinking there would be something. We walked in and he said, we sat down for tea and he’s pouring the tea and he looked up at us and he looked, he looked right up into both our eyes and he said, oh, that’s you know, we’ve been waiting for the American people for a very long time. It was incredible. So,
MARK WRIGHT 32:53
So that was the start of Peace Trees Vietnam.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 32:56
Following our guidance of honoring their losses, finding ways to build bridges of trust and understanding through sponsoring humanitarian demining. And we told him the whole story and Danaan told him the whole technical story and he said I will invite you to Quang Tri province tonight, there is a night train. We took the 15-hour night train from Hanoi down to Dong Ha and as the train as, as dawn was coming, we opened our eyes and all we could see as far as our eyes could see were bomb crater after bomb crater after. It was shot horrific. And the town, oh my goodness. There were hardly any buildings in the town, and yet, the team, the leaders of Quang Tri Province greeted us at the train station, come in, come in, and we looked, that day we spent time looking at different sites, we found the just, exactly the right site, and in, um, Danaan began working then, uh, he, through the Department of Defense and all of his buddies, he found, um, four Explosive Ordnance Disposal Officers. Who were retired and who would be willing to go to Vietnam and be the guides of showing the, um, the provincial military, how to use the, the, um, the detectors because Catholic Relief Services and Oxfam Hong Kong gave us very incredible up to the moment machines that could be, would just make it all happen, especially for the Vietnamese.
MARK WRIGHT 34:50
So, Jerilyn, for people who don’t know, tell us about Quang Tri Province and where it is in Vietnam and why it was so heavily bombed. And I mean, until I met you, I had no idea that there were so many unexploded bombs from the Vietnam War there.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 35:05
Yes. Quang Tri Province is the northernmost province of what was the south of Vietnam. Vietnam was, you know, um, in 1954, it was, it was cordoned off into the north and the south. And so, Quang Tri province had, was, had the leadership of the south, um, because they were the leaders at the, at the line. And more ordinance was expended in that province about the size of King County, where Seattle, Washington is located. More ordinance was expended in that province, then all the combined allied forces expended in World War II.
MARK WRIGHT 35:55
Wow. That’s, that’s unbelievable.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 35:57
It’s unbelievable. It’s unbelievable.
MARK WRIGHT 36:00
And, and so tell us what, like what kinds of bombs, you know, you’ve had teams working for decades there now. What, what, uh, what kinds of ordinance do, do they come across and, and how do they get rid of it?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 36:12
I’ll start on the small side. Well, the smallest sides are bombies that are dropped from a B52 and it’s the giant mother bomb that opens like the wings and then these tennis side, tennis ball size balls would start just raining in the countryside. When they hit the land, they rolled once, twice, three times and blew up. They blew up on the third. Well, there’s, the estimates are there, I’ve heard estimates as high as 30 percent of those bombs didn’t go off. So, you can imagine the danger, just horrific danger. So, from a bombie, that’s very small, up to every kind of possible grenade, um, all the way up to 2,000-pound bombs. And at our Peace Trees Vietnam Learning Center in Dong Ha. We have bomb casings, so people can actually see these gigantic bombs. Of course, there’s nothing in them now, but 2,000-pound bombs, 500-pound bombs, 750-pound bombs. And then there were bombs that could be buried in the, in the dirt on the roadway. Um, there’s, there, there’s a countless range of bombs and the number of people who lost their lives in Quang Tri Province. It’s tragically sad and I’m very happy to share with you that now in 2024, accidents have res, have reduced to almost nothing because we have, we have so many, um, landmine awareness programs teaching the children and the children go home and teach their parents like what you see and you, if you see something, say something just like we have, you know, in, in our culture, but it’s the children, if you see something, do not touch it. Back up. Call for help. Don’t move until people come. So many people have been, an unbelievable number of people have died in Quang Tri province and many people lost their limbs. And now with better health, more safety, families are happier. I mean, that’s one of our goals. We, we now have more than 200 of the most highly trained landmine UXO, unexploded ordnance detectors. They, they are, they’re trained to the highest standards of the global humanitarian demining program.
MARK WRIGHT 39:05
That’s, that’s amazing. And something like almost 150,000 unexploded ordinances have been safely disposed of.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 39:12
Yes, just to, yeah, it’s right around, probably it is by today, because the last print was 147,000.
MARK WRIGHT 39:19
So, Jerilyn, I want to ask you about the name Peace Trees, because you, you lost your husband, Danaan, pretty early on in this process. And you planted trees, right? In land that had been cleared. Um, you lost Danaan, and, and it was tragic, he had a heart attack and, and you decided you had to just forge on, right? And continue the mission. Yeah.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 39:47
Yeah. It’s true. Um, Danaan was a peacemaker. He left the Atomic Energy Commission because he believed that the work he was doing could somehow bring an end to the human race. And he walked away and went back to school and got more degrees and, and became an incredible peacemaker. And, um, he worked a great deal in Northern Ireland with, between the Catholics and the Protestants. He was called all over the world to places where, um, there was great strife and brought people together. It was amazing. I mean, it was something I’d never witnessed, and I got to learn it. I got to learn it because we were, um, we were married and we were partners and I could, I learned these things. It was unbelievable. So, all the years I’d known Danaan, he’d been developing these Peace Trees Program for the kids who lived in countries at risk or in, in battles with one another. And so, he’d bring the kids from all over the world, I mean, literally all over the world to India. So, they started in India. Their first Peace Trees Program was in 1988 in India, and they had 88 kids, that 88 kids from all over the world. And they planted trees on land that had been completely, um, just stripped of any vegetation to bring back the forest. And then it went to, then it went to Switzerland, and then it went to South Africa, and then, so Peace Trees Programs were all over the world. And in fact, Peace Trees Vietnam was our 19th Peace Trees, but we, we were, we knew that this was going to be a permanent program. And so, we have a separate, a 501c3, but the bringing together people who would be shooting each other, or putting a knife in each other’s back. And these were all young people, you know, up to 20 or 21. And that they would be digging holes. So, in conflict resolution, there are, there are three sides. The uh, you know, the two, the two sides that are really, and the third side is the neutral side. And the tree becomes, the tree is the neutral side, where the two former enemies, or we hope former enemies, will be planting that tree to grow in peace.
MARK WRIGHT 42:16
I want to ask you more about the work that you’ve done through Peace Trees Vietnam, Jerilyn. You’ve brought, uh, U.S. veterans who fought in Quang Tri province actually back there. You’ve built schools. You’ve built community centers. You have this education program that’s helping keep children safe from these unexploded ordinances. Tell me about one of the trips, Jerilyn, where you brought U.S. soldiers who actually fought there back to Vietnam and what that was like.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 42:46
I’d like to tell you the story of, I’ve led many, many trips of veterans, but this story really stands out because this is the story of my brother Dan’s fiancée, Gail Garcelon. And she called me in 2018. She lives in Texas and we’re very close. She said, I’m ready to go to Vietnam. I’d like to be there on the 50th anniversary of the day Dan was shot down. And I said, yes. So, I immediately wrote to our, our, our partners in Hanoi and, and so, we had a small group, two of them were helicopter pilots, and we had an experience that was almost unbelievable. The way in which Gail was welcomed by the leaders in Hanoi and offered their condolences for the loss of her partner. I will show you pictures of this that are unbelievable. And this means that the two helicopter pilots were with us too, and they’re both very bright. So, an enriched experience that was, I mean, I still have it in, I can have it in my heart. It’s in my heart, sitting with them for, for three hours around a big table. And they brought, they brought family, they brought mothers who lost their kids. They brought wives who lost their husbands. And so, we had about 20 people around this table, Americans and Vietnamese. And everyone was in tears at the finish, including the pilots, because we could never have imagined really that we could be around the table sharing our most painful losses and knowing that our new friends knew every single thing we were saying because they had them too. Incredible. So, the rest of that trip was like that. Norm, Norm was this incredible photographer. He was stationed in Guangxi. His photos from 1968 are incredible. Before it was completely, you know, bombed out. The way they were greeted, the way they were welcomed, the way the leaders, wherever we were, it was, it was incredible. Gail was treated as my mother, you know, my mother went when she was 90. My mother was treated like the queen of the country, the queen visitor of the country. But Gail, it was, these are things that are hard to imagine that we could go from the day I got the news that Dan was killed to today, that our Vietnamese partners are our hard soul heart. You know, there’s a tight fit. We are so working together as partners. Because they know, and we know.
MARK WRIGHT 45:58
I had a chance to meet your mom before she passed away, and that must have been an amazing experience when Ray got to go to Vietnam with you and to meet mothers who had lost their children in the war as well. What was that moment like when she met those moms?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 46:16
It was like being in heaven. It was like being in heaven. The mothers where we work is in, in the area of Quang Tri province and Quang Binh province now where the ethnic minority families live. So they are, they are, do you remember the word Montagnard that was used during the war? So, each tribe, there are 54 tribes in Vietnam and there are two tribes in Quang Tri province where we are, the Van, um, the Van Kieu and the Paco. And so, the purpose of this trip was to dedicate the kindergarten that a large number of American pilots had contributed to, to build this, this kindergarten in honor of my brother and 20 other pilots. There’s a whole roster on the wall. And so, when we arrived at the, the day for the, the blessing of the kindergarten and they asked my mom to speak first, they, they, they would never, oh, no, they would always ask the ambassadors to speak first, right? Because the ambassadors were second, they invited my mom to come up to speak. She was quite tall, as you know, and she was speaking, saying, um, I’m here today because I’ve waited 40 years to meet you all, and I’m sorry that it took me so long, she said. And just as she said that, one of the local women, one of the Vietnamese women from the women’s union lifted up this very tiny grandmother aged 92, Maram Ho Chi, um, let’s see, um, she has a, she has a, a name from her tribe and she lifted this tiny little mother into my mom’s arms and they just threw their arms around each other and cried and laughed because she told my mom and it was translated. I lost my two sons when the war passed by our village, and they finished speaking and the two ambassadors jumped up to their feet Ambassador Mike Mahalik that you just met and the Vietnamese ambassador Chien whom we knew very well they leapt to their feet and they Ambassador Mahalik said, this is the true healing between our countries when the mothers of fallen soldiers can embrace. And then the Vietnamese ambassador jumped up. This is the true meaning of peace between our countries. These are things that I would have never imagined in my life I would ever experience.
MARK WRIGHT 49:08
The work that you’re doing, Jerilyn, is on such a scale that a lot of people think that, you know, how come governments aren’t doing this? I mean, you’d think that it would fall on a government to take care of unexploded bombs. But here is this tiny woman from the state of Washington who lost a brother who started a movement. And it literally is a movement of people who love and support you and love and support the mission. I guess, I guess what I’m wondering, Jerilyn, is what’s the biggest takeaway of this whole experience for you that you could share that maybe the rest of us could put into action in our lives?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 49:54
I would say the biggest takeaway is the opportunity to heal, embrace, work with the Vietnamese people such that the walls of separation have completely melted down that our U.S. Department of State funds, our demining teams. It’s incredible that we’ve taken more than 1400 Americans, many, many, many veterans on citizen diplomacy delegations to Vietnam, probably about 80 of those we’ve taken. The, and the Vietnamese come here. I think you’ve been in some of our meetings, our gatherings, when you’ve met our partners, that we can transform the darkest night into the brightest future.
MARK WRIGHT 50:48
And what does it say about war, Jerilyn? Um, I mean, when I look at the world today and it seems like so many of the problems we face in our world today are governments getting into conflicts with other governments. But when we think about moms and dads and brothers and sisters. We don’t, we don’t want conflict, we don’t want war, nobody wants wars, but it seems like especially, you know, in these cold war conflicts that governments, you know, got us into these conflicts and, and now everyday citizens are having to pick up the pieces.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 51:30
That is true. I think it, from my perspective, the more ordinary people work together to really. Um, somehow penetrate that wall into the government. So, I think about, I’m just going to, I’m just going to look at this for a minute, but think about like when the ambassador, the U.S. ambassador comes down to Dong Ha and always plants a tree at our landmines education center, and that’s, he loves peace trees. His dad was a Marine in Gwangju province. There are so many ways if we could all somehow find a way. To work together and kind of take apart all that stuff about different, I mean, what’s this cut things in half stuff about? Why don’t we stay to be on this planet and have food for our kids?
MARK WRIGHT 52:27
What I think is amazing about you, Jerilyn, is that, well, let me just ask this. Do you ever have those moments where you think, how did all this happen? I’m just one, I’m just one person. But, and, and you’re not forceful, you, you’re the most peaceful, gentle, kind human being that I know. And, and you look back decades later over, over this work and this movement that’s been created. Do you ever, do you ever wonder how it all happened or did you know it was going to happen from the start?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 52:59
Oh, that is such a wonderful question. I think from the moment I saw the printing on the newspaper, the Herald Tribune, U.S. normalizes with Vietnam, that opened a doorway of, of the unknown, but I didn’t even think about it as the unknown. And it happened. It happened. I so believed in it. I so believed how important it was to really meet the Vietnamese people and realize, I mean, all the losses they, they had. And I think things kind of came out one at a time, um, step by step by step. There’s been a heavy duty learning, I will say, lots of learning, lots of learning, but the friendship with the Vietnamese people is like gold, it is like gold. If, if we could all, wherever we are in our lives, you know, think about transforming the things that seem so dark and pulling us away, how can we transform those experiences to be closer to people and unify? I, I think that my brother had a good deal to do with it, honestly. I think Dan and all those guys, all those guys, all those 68,000 of them, I, I pray to them, I ask for their guidance. All their families, their mothers, we’re all the same. So, I’m, and I, I consider this a gift from God. And so, I’m just incredibly grateful and I take absolutely nothing for granted that this is, you know, something that has been, I think it’s been given to us, all of us. I mean, we’re all talking about it.
MARK WRIGHT 54:46
Well, you know that you’ve always been an inspiration to me, and I, I cherish our friendship. Um, you’re just a, a, you know, a beam of light, Jerilyn, and so inspired that, uh, you’ve decided to make so many good things happen from, from a terrible situation, and you’re spreading so much love and light in the world through that. So, I can’t wait to come out and make cinnamon rolls with you in your kitchen. Anything else that we didn’t touch on, Jerilyn, that we should?
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 55:19
I think grandchildren is really important, about the next generations, and being with them in ways that they realize the things go wrong, they don’t have to stay wrong.
MARK WRIGHT 55:33
Well, Jerilyn, this has been such a treat spending time with you, my friend. Um, I’m always encouraged after we, we spend time either on the phone or on the podcast here. And I hope that those of you listening are inspired, um, in many ways and, uh, I can’t wait to come out and make cinnamon rolls in the kitchen on your little farm, uh, there. So, look forward to that, my friend, and let’s talk soon.
JERILYN BRUSSEAU 55:56
Thank you, Mark.
MARK WRIGHT 55:57
I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. And if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING. Where we are winning the game of work.