The BEATS WORKING podcast is on a mission to redeem work – the word, the place, and the way. Another purpose of the show is to create a platform where we can share what we learn. One of the ways we’re doing that is through a new series we call “Sidekick Sessions.
In Sidekick Sessions, we gather the team responsible for producing the podcast and talk with a previous guest from the show. What were our takeaways? How did the guest’s teaching change our perspective and how we now show up at work? The goal is to add layers of understanding through new perspectives and to help you get to know our team at WorkP2P (our parent company).
The sidekicks are Alysse Bryson, VP of community development for BEATS WORKING & WorkP2P; Tamar Medford, BEATS WORKING show producer; Elan Olsen, creative manager; and Libby Sundgren, content development manager.
Our first episode is dedicated to understanding generational differences at work with author, speaker, and consultant Anna Liotta. Whether you know it or not, we all have a generational code, which is the lens through which we view the world. Anna has dedicated her career to helping people and companies understand those codes to improve communication and the workplace. Our sidekick discussion with Anna was rich and varied because we have a range of ages and backgrounds on our staff.
If you have not heard the original episode with Anna, it’s worth a listen. It is packed with wisdom and insight. The title of that show is called “Why Won’t Gen-Z Come Back to Work—And Other Generational Disconnects;” you’ll find the link below in the resources.
Listen to the full Sidekick Sessions episode here:
Resources from the episode:
- Learn more about BEATS WORKING and our mission to redeem work here.
- Get to know our Sidekicks and find ways to connect with them here.
- Listen to Anna’s episode, “Why Won’t Gen-Z Come Back to Work—And Other Generational Disconnects,” here.
- Learn more about Anna and explore the suite of services she provides by visiting her website.
- Click here to receive a complimentary copy of the first chapter of Anna’s best-selling book, “Unlocking Generational Codes”.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: Anna Liotta, Alysse Bryson, Elan Olsen, Libby Sundgren, Tamar Medford, and Mark Wright
ANNA LIOTTA 00:00
I have been so grateful to hear your reflections and the things that you’ve taken away from, um, my work. Uh, I think the key thing for leaders is when you think about work, it’s no longer a workplace. It’s a workspace. And that doesn’t just mean hybrid. That doesn’t mean just distributed. It means, what kind of space do you create when people are working with you? Do you create the space where they feel honored? They feel seen, they feel heard, they feel appreciated because that’s what people are looking to leaders for.
MARK WRIGHT 00:39
This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work—the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to the first episode of Sidekick Sessions. I’m your host Mark Wright. Sidekick Sessions is a spinoff of our podcast called BEATS WORKING. The mission of the podcast is to redeem work. The word, the place, and the way. So, in other words, just to make work better for everyone. In Sidekick Sessions, we gather the team responsible for producing the podcast and we talk with a previous guest on the show. What were our takeaways? And really the goal is simple, to add layers of understanding that might otherwise go unnoticed, and at the same time, get to know our team at WORKP2P just a little bit better. Our first episode is dedicated to understanding generational differences with author, speaker, and consultant Anna Liotta. If you haven’t heard the original episode with Anna, it is worth a listen. It is packed with wisdom and insight. The title of that show is called Why Won’t Gen Z Come Back to Work? and Other Generational Disconnects. Whether you know it or not, we all have a generational code, which essentially is the lens through which we view the world. Anna has dedicated her career to helping people and companies understand these codes to make communicating and work better for everyone. Our Sidekick discussion with Anna was really interesting because we have a range of ages and backgrounds on our staff. If you have feedback or show ideas, email me at mark@beatsworking.show. And thanks for listening. Welcome to the Sidekick Sessions. I’m your host, Mark Wright. We’ve got a great group of people here today, including BEATS WORKING number one, most listened to podcast guest Anna Liotta. It’s great to have you here, Anna. Anna, your episode on generational communication has been listened to more than any of our episodes, and it’s so great to have you here today.
ANNA LIOTTA 02:52
Thank you. I’m delighted to be with the crew.
MARK WRIGHT 02:55
Okay, so let’s meet the crew. Tamar, why don’t you start?
TAMAR MEDFORD 02:59
Well, I’m Tamar Medford, and I’m the producer of The BEATS WORKING show, so I got to sit in on this amazing interview with Anna, and so excited to be here.
MARK WRIGHT 03:09
Alysse.
ALYSSE BRYSON 03:10
Well, my name is Alysse Bryson, and I am episode number two in the most listens to. Uh, so, Anna, I’m thrilled that you beat me, but let me tell you, I have been reporting the numbers feverishly for the last few weeks. Uh, I am the vice president of community development for BEATS WORKING and WORKP2P, and I love being a sidekick.
MARK WRIGHT 03:31
Awesome. Elan?
ELAN OLSEN 03:33
Hi, my name is Elan Olson. I’ve been with WORKP2P for two years and I think my official title is Creative Sidekick. So, anything that you see for BEATS WORKING or WORKP2P, I usually touched it a little bit.
MARK WRIGHT 03:49
That’s awesome. Libby?
LIBBY SUNDGREN 03:51
Hello, I’m Libby Sundgren, content development manager, Word Lady, um, and, uh, Millennial Generational Code, but trying to understand all of that. So.
MARK WRIGHT 04:02
Awesome. Oh, that is fantastic. Um, yeah, I guess, uh, my name is Mark. I’ve been the podcast host, uh, since we started this thing, joined the company in January of this year. I worked with Alysse and Libby, uh, in television before that. So, let’s jump right in. The purpose of the Sidekick Sessions is really just to kind of get an internal look at, uh, how an episode or a topic lands with our team, uh, that is in charge of, of creating these podcast episodes for all of you who listen. So, I want to start with you, Anna, and let’s just set the table with, you know, I don’t think it’s a mistake that your episode is, has really resonated. Just refresh people why it is important to understand your generational code.
ANNA LIOTTA 04:48
The reality right now is that there’s not a non-multigenerational team out there. We are all working on teams with people from different generations with different codes running in the background. And the key is when we can understand our own generational code in context and contrast to others, we can be the most effective leader and we can be the most profitable businessperson. So, it’s about being both effective and profitable as a, as a business, and it’s about being able to create a really great space to be where you attract talent to you and you over time earn them staying with you and earn their loyalty. But it starts from first understanding what makes them tick and what ticks them off. And that requires you know their code.
MARK WRIGHT 05:38
So, we have a range of folks on this episode. I think Elan is probably the youngest. I think I’m probably the oldest. I was born in 1964. Baby boomer. Last year of the boomers. I’d love to hear from, from the Sidekicks. How did this episode land with, with you all and what was the takeaway? Alysse, what did you take away from, from the episode?
ALYSSE BRYSON 06:00
Well, I loved, I love this episode. Um, and Anna, it was so great to hear you. We sat on the board together years ago, years ago now at the Columbia Tower Club. Um, and I’ve always been fascinated by the work that you do. And, um, as someone who is a Gen X code, um, just re listening to this episode the other day. It reminded me of why I have my own challenges when managing people, um, that are not Gen X. And I do, I do tend to sometimes struggle with Millennials. I do and the way that you explained it in your episode, um, because I’m a latchkey kid and I’m used to figuring things out on my own and all this autonomy and independence. It does make sense why sometimes there’s a breakdown there in communication on my part. Um, and I have to exercise a lot of patience sometimes.
MARK WRIGHT 06:54
Elan, what about you? What, what, uh, how did this episode land with you? Being, being the quote unquote youngest of the group.
ELAN OLSEN 07:00
Yeah, I’m our younger millennial representative. Um, and I actually work directly under Alysse. So, um, piggybacking off of what she said. It sat with me really well, the differences in how workers think of themselves in terms of Gen X and Millennials, we both kind of had that latchkey kid experience, but I really think that difference is that Gen X was told it’s kind of the way it is and you just put your head down and you do what you gotta do to protect yourself, whereas the Millennial generation is, no, you should probably speak up and demand that you get what it is that you want out of work while still having that independence that I think we, you know, Millennials get frustrated that Gen Z doesn’t have. So, I think we’re seeing some blends between those generations of things that tick us off and things that we see as progressive and moving us towards the future. And I think being mindful of that, especially being the youngest one on the team, about how I communicate. What’s not only best for me, but being mindful of what’s best for my Gen X and my, um, some of my, my even boomer, uh, colleagues. I really appreciated this episode.
MARK WRIGHT 08:19
That’s awesome. So, Anna, refresh us again. I think, I think one of the most profound things you said during our interview is that the biggest shift in the American workplace has been that back in the old days, the job was the jewel and the employee was a commodity because there were so many baby boomers to fill, uh, you know, those jobs but today, the employee is the jewel, right?
ANNA LIOTTA 08:42
Yeah, absolutely. I think that it’s important for people to realize we’ve spent 25 years being customer obsessed. Like, everything was about how do we create a better experience for our customer, and the most important thing right now is to become talent and people obsessed. How do we create the best experience because of that shift of who is the jewel? What’s the jewel? Right now, we have raised a um, you know, generation of Millennials and Gen Zs that both know the value of their work because their baby boomer parents and their Gen X or parents to raise them to understand their value and their worth, and oftentimes it can be frustrating for a baby boomer who, you know, saw work is called work for a reason, but raised their millennial kids with what they as boomers. earned or found as a, um, a privilege in the workplace, but they told their kids that was their right. So, there is this agency of understanding. I have a right to be valued. I have a right to be respected at work, even though that was something baby boomers oftentimes only dreamed of finding in their work. Same thing with our Gen Xers and their younger millennial kids or their Gen Z kids. They raised them to know this is your right, even if it was something they experienced as a privilege. So now with the birth numbers lower, so the massive amount of 80 million baby boomers that flooded the labor pool, right? And on top of flooding the labor pool, both men and women entering it with this big boom of, um, individuals. We also saw the first generation of workaholics. And a lot of times that gets coded as a good work ethic. But what it really was, was a work addiction where our baby boomers made their identity, their work, and oftentimes because they didn’t have a really strong relationship with their parents, they found their sense of self at work and then worked 60, 70, 80-hour work weeks and became an addiction. And now, as we don’t have as many talent in the labor pool, period. Gen Xers, only 44 million ever born, and the millennials, we were up to 76 million, but we’re actually seeing in 2025, there’s a cliff coming and all of the universities have been dealing with it first because the birth numbers in our Gen Zs drop because you think about that only 44 million Gen Xers having babies, and some chose not to, that’s going to show up in not having enough workers coming in in the Gen Z generation as well. So, all of a sudden, we look at the end of the workaholic work addiction as the quote unquote right way. We see Millennials and Gen Zs with more healthy boundaries about separation between work and my life and keeping balance and mental health as a priority and the talent, the person, is the jewel, and the job is the commodity.
MARK WRIGHT 11:40
Yeah, I want to hear from Tamara and Libby. Libby, what, um, before Anna’s episode, was generational communication something that you were aware of or something that you practiced? Or I’m curious, because until I met Anna, I really wasn’t even aware. I just assumed that everybody thought like I did and, and, and, you know, considered, you know, my view of the world, their view of the world. Libby, I’d love to hear from you. You seem like, you seem like an old soul. You seem like a baby boomer, the way you work. I’m just gonna call you out.
LIBBY SUNDGREN 12:14
Well, um, you know, it wasn’t something that I had ever, I maybe read about or remembered reading about, but it was definitely something, you know, you can sense and understand and see, even if you can’t put a name on what it is. And, you know, what I found really interesting, the work you do, and the episode was that, you know, my first real job was, you know, post-recession. So, 2009, 2010, maybe. And I was really trained and, you know, my career really grew in a company culture that was very, very boomer. So, it was very like, it just was the culture was that you did work all the time, and you would answer emails in the middle of the night, and you would always say yes, you never said no, and there were parts of it that I think really gave me a very strong, um, you know, very strong work, work ethic, but also parts that were very unhealthy. Um, and it wasn’t until I went to work in a different, uh, company that had a lot more corporate structure. And, you know, way more employees that I really noticed that’s, that’s not how everybody works and that it was okay to say, I’m not going to check my email tonight and that there were a lot of people who were like, I’m only going to work from eight to five and I’m never I’m not going to respond to you outside of that because those are the only like hours that I work. Um, so it’s been really interesting to, you know, like, while I am a millennial, I feel like I started my real work career as a boomer and have kind of been shifting towards like a different middle ground. Um, so yeah, I’ve never been able to name it, but I liked having names for him.
MARK WRIGHT 14:18
Anna, do we learn, uh, I mean, it’s one thing to be part of a generation and the premise of your work is that during those formative years, what like, A to 14 or whatever you said. Those years were that. Can we learn, actually, can, can our parents’ generation really shape us as much as our own contemporaries?
ANNA LIOTTA 14:38
Absolutely. Here’s the thing when I talk about generational codes, you know, share, I mean something very specific in the episode and I’ll give you a thumbnail here because it’s important to this. Codes get put in place by the experiences in those formative years, 8 to 18, and really even all the way up to 25, as we’re developing our capacity around logic and thinking but we’re watching the world and the events and the icons and the emotions that happen with it. And when there’s an event and it’s paired with an emotion, it creates an imprint, a groove really, a part of our code, part of an algorithm that’s running in the background. The key thing is we continue to reference that algorithm throughout our life, but it is an algorithm. It is not ransomware. So, at any point, we can pull it out of the background where it’s been running and re-evaluate, do those variables still hold the same weight, same water, same influence, or are they needing to be updated, upgraded, elevated? And so, we can absolutely make new choices. We are not locked into it, but we do default to it if we haven’t examined it. And we also default to it when we feel threatened or in times of stress, right? We’ll go back to old code. And we do this in many areas of our life, right? When under stress, we go back to old eating patterns. When under stress, we go back to, you know, sleeping or that kind of thing. So, it’s not that it’s um, you know, uh, completely outside the understanding of humanity. It’s very common. That’s why it’s really important to be able to pause and say, what is driving this action or reaction or this choice? And notice, is that producing the future I want? And then make a new choice. So, it’s important to pause, notice, and choose around our code.
MARK WRIGHT 16:28
Yeah, Elan, you had something?
ELAN OLSEN 16:30
Yeah, I’d love to ask you questions about evaluating your background programming or your codes. And the reason I ask is because you know, as that younger millennial, I’ll be in the workforce for the next 40 years or so. Um, and I want to protect not just Gen Z, but Gen Alpha and Gen Beta, who I will oversee in my career, from the rage, or at least what I’ve received as rage, from older generations about myself. So, I feel like Millennials, this is a common thing that I, you know, we see in meme culture a lot, is especially from traditionalists and boomers. I feel like we kind of run into the perspective, well, I had to do it, so now that you’re not having to do it, there’s an unfairness that’s being produced, and we don’t want to hear that. So, I’ve felt maybe a little bit of contempt and rage from older generations, or I’ve heard Millennials just don’t want to work, we don’t work hard, um, and we’re very self-centered. So how do I evaluate my generational codes to protect Gen Z, Gen Alpha, and Gen Beta from that contempt that I think is, is, you know, we see in a lot of areas and not just in work. I think a lot of times people, if they experience something negative, it hurts to see that other people never even have to think about it, you know?
ANNA LIOTTA 18:02
Yeah, this is such a brilliant question. Thank you. Um, so there’s two aspects of an answer to that. Um, some that, you know, the listening audience might really enjoy and some, it might really tick you off about what I’m about to say, right?
MARK WRIGHT 18:16
Oh, no, here it comes.
ANNA LIOTTA 18:18
Yeah, here it comes. Right? Because it’s, it’s when someone, um, In the, in a leadership position, gets angry and rageful at you. They are leaking an area of trauma for them. This is not a healthy thing. And I get it there was an old code about, you know, our traditionalist, the military was their training. And so, we had officers of the company and we saw, you know, we saw many modalities brought in from the military and plunked right into our organizations. And baby boomers came under the influence of that too. And in that model, you had a leader that yelled at you. Yes, in the context of it could save your life if you were in battle, you followed the leader with no questions asked but we also had a lot of parents that did not have a lot of training around parenting and what it did to the child when you scream at the child and they brought some of those aspects of trauma from their own family into the workplace and used it on the young people they were quote unquote leading and yet in their own kids they were doing a kinder gentler approach or trying it and maybe not sometimes we didn’t see them doing that either and so when someone is in rage at another generation it’s actually showing their weakness or their area of trauma that they’re still triggered in because that’s not an appropriate response and leadership historically old code that is what people had to survive. And so, the good news is I love your thinking for Gen Z, Gen Alpha, Gen Beta, that what we are creating now is the workplace and this has been building as Millennials entered the workforce. So, this is not just brand spanking new. There is a momentum that’s been building for the last 15 years, particularly the last 10 and then in the last 3 with the pandemic, really showing us what was possible when we expanded our, what I call currencies of meaning and we included compassion and we can, um, included a new awareness of stability and significance and happiness along with time and money. Now we have a generation that is saying, how do we make this work for all so that I can do the next 40 years of work in a healthy way? Because we’re seeing the impact on our Baby Boomers and our Gen Xers too of the mental health stress and duress that is showing up in health issues and Millennials and Gen Z and, and you know, Gen Xers too are saying, I don’t want that. So, we’re having new conversations when we think about it. So now you say, how do I help or understand when a leader is getting angry at me? The first thing is being able to say, that’s not personal, oftentimes that’s generational about how they’re approaching it. So, as opposed to immediately taking it personal and saying, I’m done, I’m out, I’m, I’m removing myself from this. To say, in that moment, to that person, could we have a conversation about this? Maybe not right now. I’d like to set up a time when they’re not in that particular level of rage or upset or that kind of thing. And at that point you actually say, I’m curious about that response and that approach because it doesn’t seem to match what was happening at the moment. Can we talk more about that? And actually beginning that dialogue. Is that super hard if this person’s directly, you know, in charge of you? Yes, but more and more leaders are understanding that talent, Millennials and Gen Z recognize they don’t have to stay in a bullying or a, you know, an unhealthy environment. And so, more and more leaders are having to up level their own emotional intelligence and their capacity in the workplace to lead from a place of not just anger and rage, but lead from a place of motivation and nourishing, developing.
MARK WRIGHT 22:26
Wow. That’s super helpful, Anna, because I think as a, you know, a boomer, when I have felt that, hey, that’s not fair type of a thing, that really does come from a place of, of a bad experience earlier in my career when I was told to shut up and put your head down, and that was the reality. Um,
ANNA LIOTTA 22:48
Probably heard something like whoever told you life was fair.
MARK WRIGHT 22:50
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Oh my gosh.
ANNA LIOTTA 22:55
What, what, you said that’s not fair. Who, who said you got to be, had to be fair?
MARK WRIGHT 23:00
Well, I want to hear from Tamar because, uh, uh, she and I are probably, we work more closely together, the two of us, um, and I would love to hear, Tamar is one of the hardest working people that I know. And, uh, you’re not super old, which is interesting. So, I want to know more, uh, Tamar, where did you learn your work ethic and, and what you think about all this generational code stuff.
TAMAR MEDFORD 23:25
Well, it brought a lot of self-awareness, that’s for sure, because I’m a Gen Xer, and I was always raised that the harder you work and the longer you work, you’re worth more and you’re more valuable. And I could total, you know, Elan, thanks for asking that question, because, um, yeah. I remember, you know, having Mark that feeling of, well, this isn’t fair. Like, you know, we’ve been working our butts off. We’re working 80 hours a week and here’s the millennials that are like, no. But meanwhile, a lot of people around me are having problems with their mental health, you know, and I’ve had to go see a therapist because of it. And she’s like, Tamar, you got to slow down. Like, you know, you don’t, you’re living in survival mode. And I feel that what a lot of my fellow Gen Xers do is work constantly in survival mode. We have to get it done. It can’t wait till Monday. And so, we find ourselves going above and beyond but what we’re really doing is being less productive because we’re taking on too much. And so, when I look at the Millennials and I, at the Gen Zers, I’m proud of them now that I understand, especially after listening to your episode, Anna, is like, I believe in, you know, find what you love and tap into that and, you know, get rest, which I’m, I have to work on every single day because currently I love what I do, which makes it even harder because now I can do even more work. Um, but I, I look down to these other generations and say, good for you. You know, you’re, there’s going to be better mental health, I believe in the future. I know right now it’s terrible. Um, and so, yeah, I, I can totally see, I got my work ethic from my boomer parents and my dad pushed me so hard and I’m a bit of a workaholic, so it’s just, now there’s a lot more self-awareness and also how I communicate with people because not everybody’s like me, right, like Alysse said, I can’t just push my, my stuff onto somebody else because good for them for having a voice because I think we need to use our voice a little bit more as Gen Xers.
MARK WRIGHT 25:28
Yeah. Thank you for that, Tamar. And I think what’s, uh, yeah, I wanted to, I want to go to Alysse because, um, what’s interesting on it is that the American, you know, American companies are starting to quote unquote do the right thing because they don’t have enough employees to choose from. It’s kind of ironic when, when we had too many workers, they just, they didn’t have to treat people well. They didn’t have to take their needs into consideration as much. And Alysse, you know, I’d love for you to touch on this because what we’re trying to do at WORKP2P and with the podcast BEATS WORKING is we’re not, we’re not waiting to get forced to do the right thing. What we’re trying to do is to show there’s a better way to do business. And I’d love, Alysse, for you to, to touch on that if, if you would.
ALYSSE BRYSON 26:12
Yeah, thanks, Mark. I, I, what I think is exciting about right now, and especially what we’re trying to demonstrate at WORKP2P, is that, you know, our tagline for WORKP2P is that we’re putting work first. Um, our mission with BEATS WORKING is that we’re on a mission to redeem work. The word, the place, and the way. And the word, because work has gotten kind of a, a negative con, people look at the word work and they feel negative about it in a large whole. However, I don’t. I love what I do. I love the projects that I work on, whether it’s the projects that I’m working on with all of you, uh, you know, Monday through Thursday, or it’s side projects that I have going on for myself, you know, Friday through Sunday. That’s kind of how I divide my week. And, um, And so when I think about working too much, because I also, I was raised by boomers, um, and I, I, I, I have been a workaholic, and I have worked in unhealthy environments, and, you know, I have led Libby to, like, we work harder, we work longer, we answer the calls, you know, 24/7, and I, I worked us both into the ground, not, you know, I ended up missing her wedding, because I ended up having emergency heart surgery from being a workaholic. So, there’s a real downsize for not taking enough breaks and not as the word we love to use is oscillation, right? And so, what we’re trying to show at WORKP2P and we’re doing this through, um, intentional sidekick training is learning your energy management. You know, so many people talk about the fact that time is our most valuable commodity. Well, not really, right? Cause if you show up and you’re only half there because you’re half asleep because you stayed up till 2 AM on TikTok, I’m just making that up as an example. I don’t personally know anyone who does that. Um, it doesn’t matter if you’re there, if you’re not fully there, right? So, it’s learning to manage our energy, uh, and learning to put the projects that are most important to us, organize them in our day when we have the most energy or our best energy. And I’m someone who does get a creative hit in the morning certainly. But I also know I get a secondary one in the evening between seven and eight if I’m doing all the right things. And so, I would love to hear you talk about, a little bit about generational code and how that relates to energy management and also how technology affects us in so many different ways. Because I’ve also had frustration myself with technology, but also frustration with boomers you know, that I’m having to explain, well, this is how you use it and this is why we use it, and this is how it’s going to save you time. But then, of course, there’s the Millennials and the Gen Zs that are like running circles around me with AI. So, it’s there’s a lot of different layers to this conversation, I think.
ANNA LIOTTA 29:05
Yeah, there’s so many good layers. So first off, I want to pull out what I fondly and not so fondly call corporate hazing. Corporate hazing is when someone says, I did it this way. I had to suffer for this. I had to, therefore you should too, right? And this is where they say things like you should work this many hours, you should work back-to-back, you should have to suffer in the way because I learned something from that. And we have this, um, amnesia, nostalgia of how amazing it was or how effective we were when we came into the workplace. And it’s never really what it was like, but we remember ourselves more positively in that kind of setting. Now you come to, um, AI, we’ll, we’ll pick that one. And we’re seeing all of these efficiencies that AI can bring and all these things that AI can do to help us. make our job go faster, better, smoother, but it still requires the human component. So now you get that to the point where we are still, if you are still managing time exclusively versus output, you’ve got this disparity between the generations because sometimes, and not I don’t want to say absolute because there are some amazing boomers that have picked up AI or they’ve picked up technology and they are, you know, rocking it. Same thing with Gen Xers. So, this is not an absolute across the generations. It’s a broader brushstroke. And in fact, let’s just be clear. There are no absolutes, right? Everything is, you know, the broader brushstrokes. I don’t ever want to say everyone always in, you know, whatnot. But you look at where people are still trying to measure on time and they’re saying, well, if you got that done in less time than you should go and pick up and do multiple more things because we’re, we’re measuring your time. This is a tough thing for leaders, and I’ve been talking to you know leaders for 15 years about the fact that they need to have a renaissance in what they measure. How do they reward and reflect back to their people what they value? And it cannot just be time for money because that’s, you know, that’s a limited amount of levers you’ve got to pull. So, when you look at that generationally, younger generations may say, listen, I want to pace myself throughout the day because I’ve got access to technology, and I don’t have to come on site. That’s the other thing the pandemic cracked open wide for us, is that it forced everyone to realize, yeah, we can actually be protective in many ways in a distributed workforce. Don’t get me wrong, I’m doing a keynote in a week for the Ambulance Association, and yes if you’re an EMT or a paramedic, you gotta be on the rig, right? You gotta be there to save lives. I get it, there’s jobs, you gotta be on site. But there’s also administrative folks that are in the emergency medical space that don’t have to be there. So, they had to take a look at what’s absolutely necessary, what’s absolutely not and where can leveraging technology or leveraging other aspects mean that we need to measure things differently? And so, when we get into the generations, younger generations have less attachment to the way it’s always been done. And they have a ability to bring 360 degree thinking to a solution that was not necessarily, um, an open invitation to baby boomers and Gen Xers too. They were given a job, and they were asked to do that job. And if you got curious about other people’s work or what they were doing, a lot of times you got smacked down because that wasn’t your accountability. That’s not what you should be worrying about. And yet we’ve been training our Millennials and our Gen Z’s not what to think but how to think and so there’s a very different entrepreneurial energy that they bring in whether they’re starting their own career or they’re just working with the other people. They’re bringing this entrepreneurial thinking into it. Now I want to go back to one of the things you said at the very beginning, Alysse, which is, um, the redeeming the word work. But I want to point out that when you said, I love, you said, I love what I do. I love the projects. And so, we have to be really careful about, um, what we think work does. It used to be work is called work for a reason. It may, you have enough resources to put food on the table, a roof over your head, clothing on your back. Now people look at work and they’re looking at it as an opportunity to self-actualize. They’re saying, what can I learn here that I can take anywhere? How can I build my portfolio of skills and my experiences so that I can grow as a human being and provide more value? And as leaders, we have to say, are we still providing the people who we have the opportunity to shepherd through a period of their journey, their workforce journey, are we providing them with the best opportunity to fully actualize their dreams, their goals, their mission? And developing them in that and then if there is a time at which it’s more appropriate for them to move on to another organization, providing the springboard that they can actually do that instead of trying to hoard talent because the old model is keep them longer and they’re more profitable. That may not be the truth anymore. Do you know at what point people are profitable to your organization and at what point they’re actually burnt out and they’re decreasing the, the profitability. Those are the kinds of things people have to look at now is what’s the cost of keeping someone too long?
MARK WRIGHT 34:35
Wow. There’s so much wisdom on it that you’ve been talking about, especially when you’re talking about, when you were talking about how we measure output, how we measure what people do on the job. And, you know, the old code is, yeah, watching the clock. Hey, the boss is coming, look busy. Um, you know, hey, Bob left 10 minutes early. It’s like, that is such an old code, right? And now we’re looking at what’s, what’s the result of, of your work, and it’s much more fluid. Um, and speaking of hoarding talent, I mean, I, you know, we came from three of us came from an industry where non-compete clauses were the norm and, you know, non-compete clauses, you know, prevent you from taking a job in the same geographic area with a competitor and it only protects the company and thankful, thankfully, we’re seeing more and more legislatures around the country. New York and California have outlawed them. Um, Washington has, but if you’re making more than 100,000 a year, you are still bound by non-compete clauses in the state of Washington. So, again, that’s old code. Why don’t you just make the workplace good, and people will want to stay? That’s a crazy idea.
ANNA LIOTTA 35:44
Exactly. Exactly. I say there are three E’s that you need to think about. One, are you creating a great experience for your people as an employee? Two, are you creating a great environment? Like, literally, what is it to work in that space? And then three, are you creating an evolution? Are you creating an arc of growth for them? If you don’t have a great experience, environment, and evolution, why would I want to stay? That’s just abusive to make me stay. If you don’t have it.
MARK WRIGHT 36:13
That’s awesome. Okay, so I want to be aware of the clock and, and before we wrap things up though, I’m going to, I’m going to put my teammates on the spot and I’m going to ask you to tell me how you are going to do things differently now that you’ve heard Anna’s episode and now that you know more about generational communication. So, I’ll start with Tamar. How are you, what are you going to do differently now?
TAMAR MEDFORD 36:40
Knowing what I know, and, you know, mentioning emotional intelligence, that’s something I’ve worked on, and taking that time to pause whenever I’m dealing with a different generation. And just taking the pause and thinking first, okay, Millennial, this is how they function. I’m grateful for that, because it’s taught me, now I know how to communicate from there. So really taking that pause.
MARK WRIGHT 37:06
That’s awesome. Libby, how about you? What are you going to commit to doing differently?
LIBBY SUNDGREN 37:11
Oh, well, it’s hard to follow Mark’s. That’s such a good one. Um, you know, I think, um, no, as I mentioned, something that has been just hard for me, and I’m glad Elan talked about it is just thinking in my mind. Even if I don’t say it out loud, but thinking like, oh, get over it. Like I’ve done so much, so many worse things, you know, like just not a lot I haven’t thought this about you to be clear, but two people in my career, I have thought that. Um, and I think that it has just reminded me, and you know, other experiences, but also this episode just really reminded me to put a real emphasis on making it better. Um, and not that I have wanted to haze people, but I’m at least mentally in my mind. I know I have had been short on empathy in some occasions and I think really appreciating, um, you know, my generation and the generation after me for really wanting to make work a place that people want to be but not all the time, so.
MARK WRIGHT 38:26
That’s awesome. And to hear Libby say she’s gonna commit to being nicer is pretty hard for me to understand. Because Libby is one of the nicest people I have ever known, uh, work or not work. Um, Alysse, how about you? What, what are you gonna commit to doing differently?
ALYSSE BRYSON 38:42
It’s a really good question. I, I feel like I am just set up for so success, so much success right now in the environment that we find ourself in at WORKP2P, because part of the way that we’re doing everything is to really lean into all of this and to lean into clear communication. We’re also really big on meeting cadence. And at first, I was very resistant of all the reoccurring meetings but now I see how much work is getting done inside those meetings. Um, and just the way that we’re managing our time and our energy using our top six tool. We also have these things for when we do go into the office. Um, and this is a direct rip-off from, um, the episode with Jeff Kass at Kass Tailored, uh, up at their manufacturing, um, facility in Mukilteo, they have little, little stands on each desk where it’s got three cups, a green cup, a red cup and a yellow cup. And that lets, you know, if you can approach the person or if they’re in the middle of something, right? If it’s green, that means go. If it’s red, that means stop, right? If it’s yellow, it means stop. You know, proceed with caution. It better be really serious, and I was in the office yesterday for the first time in a couple of weeks, and I just had to giggle that we have those now, but they’re, we, our sticks are plungers, and, um, because, you know, we’re keeping it classy at the warehouse, and Kent, we’re keeping it classy, you guys, and, uh, but I was really excited to change the color of my cup. So, it was like nobody, nobody can bother me because I’m a red right now. I’m doing really important work and you know, nobody was around anyway. So, it didn’t matter. But I just love that I’m in a space where I can try on different personas and different ways of doing things because at past places that I worked, especially coming out of corporate, you couldn’t, you could try new things, but within, within this red tape, right? And I feel like the red tape has been removed and we just get to try a bunch of things. And I also feel like we’re in an environment where it’s the safest place ever to fail, and that has been really an important thing for me to learn, that it’s okay if I make a mistake because I’m going to, and I’m going to learn from it, and it’s not the end of the world. So, I just feel like we’re at this really great, uh, positioning right now with the work that we’re doing.
MARK WRIGHT 41:01
That’s awesome. Thank you, Alysse. All right, Elan, what about you?
ELAN OLSEN 41:05
Well, I think, um, I would publicly like to commit to, um, a deeper awareness of my colleagues, and really, the core of that is intentionally loving my colleagues a little bit better. And Anna, I love that you mentioned, um, the hierarchy of needs. I think about that a lot in my own life, and a realization and awareness that self-actualization means something very differently for me than it does for a traditionalist or a boomer or a Gen X or, you know, Gen Beta. Um, so I think also inserting maybe the phrase when you’re dealing with generational codes that is, you know, for me that I’m struggling to understand is just remembering that personal isn’t the same as important in those instances, is removing the personal from it and realizing that this is another human being, as you noted, that may be expressing a trauma response to and then how can I take that lesson and be a better leader for the following generations or for my children or just a better coworker to my team. Um, and I really want to thank you as well because I feel like your concepts have really released me from a little bit of shame. Because I, I think of myself as being a very hard worker, and so being told millennials don’t work hard has always been very hard for me to hear. But I don’t consider myself a workaholic. I really don’t. I have no problem shutting the computer and I don’t feel bad about it. And I think sometimes operating, um, in a workplace that’s unredeemed, it can feel easy to, um, find yourself in a position where you’re thinking, well, I finished all my projects, and I can’t think of anything else to do. I must not be of as much value to my coworkers that are working until 9 PM or answering emails at 11. So, I really appreciate the release of that maybe shame isn’t the right word, but just the release of maybe that imposter syndrome that I felt a little bit about, um, being a Millennial in a workplace with, um, coworkers who are a bit older than me. I really appreciate it.
MARK WRIGHT 43:12
Elan, that is so well said. Thank you for that. Um, I think for me, Anna, it’s just, uh, I mean, during our interview, you called me out and said, oh, I’m just going to call you out Mark, your code is leaking and, um, and I think awareness is really what I’ve taken away from, from this conversation with you. I want to be more self-aware, and I want to be more aware of the needs of others around me and, and just give them grace, uh, instead of reacting to just take a beat, like Tamar said, take a beat, take a minute. You know, see, see really what, what I think is going on and then respond. And, uh, I love, Elan, I just love your commitment to doing it better because I think we need all of our leaders going forward to have that mindset of what can I be doing better to motivate and inspire the next generation of workers because that’s how we’re going to transform work in this country. It’s not, it’s not going to transform by saying shut up and get back to work and, and put your head down. So, Anna, just, I’d love to give you the last minute or so just to, to give us some inspiration and, and just, uh, as Elan said, I just want to thank you for the work that you’re doing. I think it’s so important right now in our country.
ANNA LIOTTA 44:25
Thank you. I have been so grateful to hear your reflections and the things that you’ve taken away from, um, my work. Uh, I think the key thing for leaders is when you think about work, it’s no longer a workplace. It’s a workspace, and that doesn’t just mean hybrid. That doesn’t mean just distributed. It means what kind of space do you create when people are working with you? Do you create the space where they feel honored? They feel seen? They feel heard? They feel appreciated? Because that’s what people are looking to leaders for. They’re looking to leaders to see here appreciate me. I call it the Shaw factor. They want to know that when I come to work, I get to be a whole human being. I don’t have to fit into the work. I get to be celebrated, not just tolerated. And so, what kind of a space do you create in the work that you do?
MARK WRIGHT 45:23
Well, after talking with all of my teammates and talking with you Anna, you can probably know why I love working with this team so much. I just think everyone on this call is just so genuine and so committed to doing it better. And, uh, I’ve never had a better work experience in my life. For the past six months, and it’s just been fantastic, and so you have an open invitation on it, and I know we’re going to be talking with you more on Contributor’s Corner, which is going to be a regular thing where some of our experts gather on a regular basis and, uh, and share their wisdom, and your wisdom is so amazing. So, I want to just say thanks. Thanks to the team. You’ve all been fantastic, and we’ll see you next time on Sidekick Sessions. I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. And if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of Beats Working, where we are winning the game of work.
