Imagine having to be the person who tells someone a family member has died. That’s part of Chaplain Mike Ryan’s job, serving police and fire agencies on King County’s Eastside (five agencies covering nearly 10 communities). In fact, in a recent year, Mike responded to more than 100 death scenes to comfort and help grieving families.
Mike’s story is a fascinating one. He won a national football championship as a lineman at USC and was drafted by the Oakland Raiders, but he chose to go into the ministry instead. He has since dedicated his life to helping families through trauma and grief—and ensuring first responders get the care they need to stay emotionally healthy.
“Firefighting runs in Mike’s family,” says BEATS WORKING host Mark Wright, “but after meeting him, I learned it takes a very special person to do the job he does, see the things he sees, and deal with the trauma that comes with death. Our conversation transcends the boundaries of work, reflecting on a life spent in the service of others’ most critical moments.”
Resources from the episode:
- Connect with Mike Ryan on LinkedIn.
- Learn more about Eastside Fire & Rescue’s Chaplain Program here.
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Transcript
The following transcript is not certified. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. The information contained within this document is for general information purposes only.
Speakers: Mike Ryan and Mark Wright
MIKE RYAN 00:00
You know, as I work with our first responders, one of the things that they’ll tell you is that the clinical work, they’re into it, but the emotional trauma that’s going on behind him, that’s, that’s what penetrates that veil of objectivity and pulls them into the emotional side of it. And I’ve been told many times that when I show up, things calm down. Well, that’s because I’m able to take on that trauma and help the family cope with that acute, horrible moment that’s going on in their family’s life.
MARK WRIGHT 00:41
This is the BEATS WORKING show. We’re on a mission to redeem work – the word, the place, and the way. I’m your host, Mark Wright. Join us at winning the game of work. Welcome to BEATS WORKING. On the show this week, when compassion is your full-time job, imagine having to be the person who tells someone a family member has died. That’s part of Mike Ryan’s job as chaplain for the Bellevue Police and Fire Departments. In fact, in a recent year, Mike responded to more than a hundred death scenes to comfort and help grieving families. Mike’s story is a fascinating one. He won a national football championship at USC. He was drafted by the Oakland Raiders but chose instead to go into the ministry. Firefighting runs in Mike’s family, but after meeting him, I learned it takes a very special person to do the job he does, see the things he sees, and deal with the trauma that always comes with death. In addition to helping families, Mike is also committed to making sure firefighters get the care they need to stay emotionally healthy. I hope you enjoy my conversation and are inspired by Chaplain Mike Ryan. Chaplain Mike Ryan, welcome to the BEATS WORKING podcast. It’s great to have you here.
MIKE RYAN 02:04
Always good to be with you, Mark.
MARK WRIGHT 02:06
So, Mike, I think you are the very first pastor, number one, and the very first chaplain that we’ve had on the podcast. And when I got to meet you a number of months ago at the Bellevue Fire Foundation event that we both attended, um, just making small talk at the table, Mike, I really started to develop an understanding of the value of what a chaplain brings to a police department and a fire department. Um, so I think I’d love to start the conversation there, Mike. You’re the chaplain for Bellevue police and Bellevue fire. When you just meet somebody out in the world and they have no idea what you do for a living, what, what do you tell them? Well, what, what, what do you tell them? What does a chaplain do?
MIKE RYAN 02:50
Well, um, we have two roles and, um, you know, the, the role that I embrace. First, is that as I’m there to be, uh, one of the support resources for our first responders. Our police officers and firefighters, dispatchers and their support staff deal with an awful lot of stress on a day-to-day basis. They see a lot of things in life and just the nature of their jobs that impact them and sometimes it stays with them and, and, uh, and I work in conjunction with our department’s peer support program. Um, and in both of those agencies, I am under, uh, the, uh, authority and supervision of, um, the battalion chief on the fire side that oversees peer support and our, uh, wellness sergeant on the police side. And I’m there to help and support them in any way they want. And, um, I often, when I train other chaplains, remind them that we are an invited guest in their world. And, uh, so it’s a privileged place to be and we seek to serve as needed. Um, and so, uh, we have the opportunity to just sit and listen and talk and be available. When one of the phrases I like to use about. What I do is it’s called a ministry of presence. Um, it’s just being around the guys know you’re there. And periodically they have an opportunity to just to sit down and talk about what’s going on in their world and their life. And over the years, I’ve had the privilege of doing weddings and funerals and, and, um, you know, work with our peer support programs to deal with stress and critical incident stress. I, um, for all our new hires in the, Police Department, I teach a class called Human Response to Trauma, and I do an orientation to some of the traumatic stress issues that they will face, um, talk to them about grief, and how to do death notifications. My opening line when I talk to them about doing death notifications is that there’s no way to make it better. When you go to a home cold turkey and have to inform them of the death of a loved one, but you can be kind. And so, I talk to them about how to be kind in those situations. And frankly, the kindest thing to do is just say it. So, I’m there to support our officers and our firefighters. And then the one of the ways that I help them specifically is, um, you know, when anybody dies outside of the hospital. Invariably, they call 911 and a fire responds first. And if they find that there has been a residential death, then the police come and they’re, they are there because they’re responsible for investigating any out of hospital death. And they serve basically as an extension of the King County Medical Examiner’s office and um, so they have to do an investigation and what they are able to do is to call the chaplain to come in and what I’m then responsible for doing is taking the grieving survivors and offering them care and support um, while that investigation goes on and I stay with them until the medical examiner comes or if the medical examiner waives jurisdiction, then the officers can leave. Then I work with them to identify a funeral home and support them that way.
MARK WRIGHT 06:46
When we spoke recently, I really came to a deeper appreciation of you know, when there’s a scene and someone dies and before the era of chaplains, you know, first responders would arrive on a scene and I’m guessing that these are pretty chaotic and it’s pretty stressful. And if the first responder, responder is trying to resuscitate someone while at the same time, a loved one is just understandably, you know, just emotionally, maybe having an outburst or whatever, whatever they may be doing the role of the chaplain really is to be able to deal with that person’s emotional needs while the first responders are dealing with the emergency, right?
MIKE RYAN 07:29
Yeah. And, and, um, you know, unfortunately, uh, you know, I’m not in the rig with these guys. So, they, they get there first and they have a working cardiac arrest. And, um, you know, our protocol here in King County is we throw a lot of resources at a cardiac arrest. We get at least an engine company, an aid car, and then a medic unit with a medical supervisor. So very, there’s six to eight people in the room and good CPR is hard work. And so, they work that person and, and, uh, King County has, has this most significant resuscitation rate in the nation. And that’s because we have such good medics that are there. Uh, we bring the ER to the house, but, um, you know, they’ll do CPR for 30 to 40 minutes on a patient if, if there’s indication, they’re getting some kind of a response and late into that, they will call for a chaplain because they’re getting close to calling it and they need somebody to be there. So, I usually show up either as they are ceasing efforts or just shortly after they have ceased efforts and invariably either the medical supervisor that’s there or the officer in charge, it could be a battalion chief, or it could be a police officer. They will introduce me to the family, and then I will take over, uh, explaining to them what’s going on, what’s why are the police here? What’s happening next? And kind of absorb that emotion because, you know, as I work with our first responders, one of the things that they’ll tell you is that the clinical work, they’re into it, but the emotional trauma that’s going on behind him, that’s, that’s what penetrates that veil of objectivity and pulls them into the emotional side of it. And I’ve been told many times that when I show up, things calm down. Well, that’s because I’m able to take on that trauma and, and help the family cope with that acute, horrible moment that’s going on in their family’s life. And, uh, then the guys can totally focus on that patient. And when they cease efforts, they’re, they’re, they’re disappointed because they’re trained to save lives. And, you know, when they’re unable to do that, they, they’re disappointed. You know, a lot of times they’ll go there and, and there’s nothing that they can do. That person has already died. So, um, they’ll, they’ll stay with the family, you know, because they’re definitely caring people. And, you know, they’re, they’re hurting with them, but they have to get back in service. So, the value of having the chaplain there is I can also take on that and they can get back in service clear the scene and so I stay with him usually a couple hours after an event like that.
MARK WRIGHT 10:37
Yeah, well, I want to get more into the nuts and bolts of the job in just a sec Mike, but I’d love to go back and just talk about your history. I found our conversation a while back It was really an interesting life story that you have. You grew up in the San Francisco area, right? Going to Catholic schools?
MIKE RYAN 10:56
Yeah, I, uh, I, uh, grew up in downtown San Francisco. I’m a third generation San Franciscan. My dad was a career firefighter. In San Francisco, and in those days, uh, the city had a rule that if you worked for the city and county of San Francisco, you had to live in the city and county of San Francisco. Today they can’t enforce that just simply because the cost of housing is too expensive, but that wasn’t true when my dad bought our first house for $8,500, you know.
MARK WRIGHT 11:31
What was that like, Mike? As, as having a dad as a firefighter. I mean, when you’re a little kid, there are probably three jobs, professional baseball player, astronaut, and firefighter that you aspire to. What was that like as a kid?
MIKE RYAN 11:43
Oh yeah. Wow. It was, it was fascinating. I mean, um, we would go down and visit dad at the firehouse. Um sometimes we could have dinner with him. Um, he’d let us sit in the truck and, um, roll it out the door. And when we were real little, you know, I used to put his helmet on me and, you know, it’s a old New Yorker leather hat that probably weighed 10 pounds. And I, you know, I’d walk around with that on my head and, you know, and I was really, I think we were all very, very proud of our dad. And, and, uh, every once in a while, because we lived in the city, dad would call my mom going out the door. Tell him he was going to a big structure fire says bring the kids down and watch and we’d go down and we see dad do his thing, you know, um, and over the years, you know, he promoted up, he became a lieutenant and then it became a captain and it became a battalion chief and, and, uh, had a, had a tremendous career, worked 35 years, had some, a couple of hot, uh, tragedies. Uh, he went through a floor one time and, and, uh, got banged up pretty bad. And then, then, and another time he had a butane tank blow up in his face and that put him in the hospital for six weeks and out of service for six months. And, uh, you know, he was a very aggressive firefighter. And in those days, they didn’t have the, what we call PPE, the protective equipment that we have today. Um, all firefighters today, before they go into a building, they will put on a hood, and they’ll put on a Scott air pak. Uh, when dad was fighting that, they, they, they had two Scott air paks on a rig. And they didn’t use them, you know, they just turned their helmet around and they put their head down and they didn’t have hoods. So, uh, my dad could never figure out what the sense of putting a hood on, because he could go into a burning building. He could tell when there was going to be a flashover by how hot it got on his ears, you know? So. But, um, it was a great life. Um, you know, it, you know, work and shift work. He worked 10 shifts a month, like the guys do today. And he’ll be home and available, you know? And so, he’d help coach baseball and, and he’d take us up the park and, and, and my dad was, uh, a good athlete in high school and he wanted his son to be a good athlete too. So, he’d take us up the park and throw footballs at us and baseballs at us. And then, you know, then, then when we got into high school, he was very, very supportive of us and what we did. So, so that was my life there. I went to a Catholic high school, played football there, got a scholarship to USC and went down there and played uh, for USC, had the joy of winning a national championship in 1972. And while I was there, I kind of got, um, a call into ministry. And, um, you know, so when I left school, um, to the disappointment of my dad, I was drafted by the Raiders. And I told them no, to go to seminary.
MARK WRIGHT 14:57
And this is back in the days of the Raiders were pretty bad team, right? I mean, bad in like, like, I don’t want to say bad ass, but I mean, a bad team.
MIKE RYAN 15:07
They were, they were known as a tough club. And, um, but, but, you know, I’d always, always been a Raider fan. Cause they were just across the bay, them and them and the 49ers. But, but, um, to the, that I wanted, I, I went to seminary, and I started working with kids and, and, you know, I was off and running and, and my sports background had a, did a lot for me, um, in, in giving entree to ministry. I began to work a lot with, with, uh, high profile athletes through very different sports organizations and, and had a great time doing that all, all along pastoring, uh, local churches. I pastored three local churches for 23 years, over 23 years. And, uh, while I was back in San Francisco, um, had a couple of cops come up to me from downtown. There were two homicide investigators. They came knocking on the door of my church and, um, they had heard that I was there in town and, and, and they were looking for somebody to be a chaplain. And, um, I you know, I thought, well, yeah, I’m in. So, um, you know, they’re, they’re, there’s ceremonial roles that chaplains play, but I didn’t want to just be a ceremonial chaplain. I wanted to be a pastor to the officers and help them any way that I could. And um, they were all for that as well. And so, I, I started doing that in 1985 and that relationship grew and grew, and it grew to a point where by 1995, I made the decision to leave the local church, start a nonprofit and raise support because chaplain’s not a funded position. I’m a volunteer and so I started a nonprofit and people liked the idea of what I was gonna do and they helped contributed to that. And um, so I’ve been doing that since 1995 as a funded volunteer. And God’s been good because I haven’t missed a paycheck the whole time.
MARK WRIGHT 17:20
So that’s amazing. I wanna ask you Mike, it seems like to turn down a chance to go into the NFL, that’s a pretty big turning point in your life. But it, it sounds like you really had some really deeply held spiritual seeds that had been planted in your life. When you were a kid, I mean, were you a spiritual kid or did you go to church or, I mean, tell me about the spiritual life as a kid.
MIKE RYAN 17:41
Well, yeah, you know, um, I always go, I was, it was me and about five old ladies at the 6 a.m. mass during the week at church. I, there was always a sense, this transcendent sense of, of God in my life and, um, you know, in no way am I, or have I ever been a saint, I’m a sinner saved by grace, but the good news is that I have a God who loves me and is full of grace. And so while I was in, uh, you know, grammar school, I got involved with, uh, being an acolyte and, uh, worked, worked a lot with the priest, you know, I was a big kid so I could carry the cross, you know, and then I got into high school and, and, you know, high school, uh, where I went to high school in San Francisco, it was kind of a football factory. And um, so football kind of took over a lot of the things that were going on in my life. And, uh, you know, starting my junior year, I was getting recruited by colleges and then, um, uh, went to, you know, knew I wanted to go to USC because I wanted to play, I wanted to go to the Rose Bowl, but I also wanted, wanted to play pro football in those days. So, uh,
MARK WRIGHT 19:07
What position did you play, Mike?
MIKE RYAN 19:09
I was an offensive lineman, um, and I was an average size offensive lineman in those days. I was 6’2 265. And, um, today I couldn’t get a cup of coffee as a, as a, as a lineman at 265. I mean, maybe I could play center, but, it’s a different game today.
MARK WRIGHT 19:30
But you so nonchalantly said, you know, that you had won a national championship with the USC. I mean, what, what an amazing thing. That must have had a pretty impressive impact on you, right?
MIKE RYAN 19:41
Well, you know, um, the first you know, there’s a whole story behind that. I mean, we, we, um, had a real spiritual awakening on our team, uh, going into my senior year and they were multiple members of my team who, who really came to faith in God. And, and we started to meet together and pray together and encourage each other. And you know, it is a team game and we, we were determined that we were going to honor God with our with our play. And, um, and, and so, um, you know, it’s all about motivation. And if you’re motivated to satisfy your own self, that was part of our problem. The first two years here, everybody was more concerned about their own personal achievements than as a team. And, um, we really came together that year and, you know, we went undefeated in 1972. Uh, won the national championship, beat Ohio State in the Rose Bowl. We had, uh, 33 players off of that team, signed a pro contract. We had 16 guys who eventually over the course of their four years, they’re made all American. There were nine all pros that went on to play on in the NFL. It was, it was, um, as a mark football teams over the years, depending on, you know, the farther you get removed from that, obviously there’s more and more teams, but at one point in time we were considered one of the top college football teams of all time. The last time I saw a list was a couple of years ago in sports illustrator. We were number four, number five. So, we had a great team. And a lot of the reason we were a great team was certainly we had good talent, but it was because of the spiritual unity and support we have for each other. Really set us up well.
MARK WRIGHT 21:37
So, Mike, as you started as a chaplain, once you started your nonprofit and you became, you know, really full time in that world, did it take a period of adjustment in terms of, I’m, I’m guessing there are a lot of sort of relational rules or unwritten rules that you need to understand when it comes to crime scenes and when it comes to tragedy. What were those early days like, Mike?
MIKE RYAN 22:02
Well, uh, first of all, I started out with San Francisco police and, you know, when I was with them, I was primarily invested in giving care to the officers, and so I didn’t get called out a lot to death scenes and such. They didn’t want me to do that. They had other people in San Francisco to do that, but then I started also to start programs on the San Mateo Peninsula which is south of San Francisco. And, you know, they started to use the chaplain to give care and support to families when there were residential deaths and traumas like that. And, and, um, I began to work in conjunction with the coroner’s office and learn what their needs were, what their expectations were, understood what my boundaries were. Um, every agency has their protocols and, um, you know, you can’t get in the way you’re, you’re there to support the survivors and you are not an investigator. You are not, um, you know, you’re not there to do anything other than just be an emotional, spiritual support for surviving people. And, um, I can liaison on their behalf. If they have questions that they want me to ask the officers or the medical staff that they’re at the scene. But, um, uh, we, we understand as chaplains, we are there, we’re an extension of the agency we serve, we represent them. Um, you know, the Supreme court has declared that the role that we play as a secular role. So, we’re not there to get preachy. We’re not there to evangelize. We are there to be crisis intervention specialist. And invariably, over the years, as you build rapport with the surviving families, oftentimes they’ll, they’ll invite you to pray with them, or they’ll invite you to come and help do a memorial service for their loved one that has died. Um, and, you know, I, I, you know, I point them to other resources in the community too that are available for them.
MARK WRIGHT 24:21
So, your wife got a banking job, as I understand it, up in the Seattle area. You followed. How did you get connected as a chaplain up in this area when you guys moved up?
MIKE RYAN 24:32
Um, I, you know, I, at the time, um, had just been appointed a chaplain with the FBI. I had talked to the EAP at the E at FBI headquarters if I could continue to do chaplaincy up here with the FBI office. And they initially said, yes, that’s sure you could do that. So, I thought, well, good, I’ll continue chaplaincy when I move up here.
MARK WRIGHT 24:57
And what’s EAP again?
MIKE RYAN 25:00
An Employee Assistance Program with, with the FBI. Yeah. But when I got up here, what the EAP didn’t understand was that the local special agent in charge had complete autonomy over who their chaplains were, and they already had two chaplains in their office. They didn’t need another one. But the good news that I had was that, um, a friend of mine who was a pastor in the same denomination, but was working up here in the Bellevue area, um, knew the Bellevue police chief and he talked to him and said, you know, I got this guy, Mike Ryan, he’s been chapping with San Francisco and they’re moving up here and he’s looking for an opportunity to serve. Would you like to meet him? So, he set up a meeting for me to meet with chief Jim Montgomery, and at the time, Bellevue had never had a chaplain’s program, and so with his permission, I was invited to come in and start a program with them, and, um, they did have peer support, so I started working with their peer support coordinator, and soon after I started serving as the police chaplain, um, uh, the peer support coordinator for the fire department reached out to me. And asked me if I’d be willing to help them, and I absolutely was happy to do that. And, um, it became sort of like a natural fit because when they started having needs in the, in the field and in the community, they called me, and I was available to come. Um, you know, there were times in the past when Bill B started a chaplain program, but whenever they asked a chaplain to come, they’d never show up. And so, I knew the burden was on me. It says, you better keep your promise. If you’re going to be there to serve, be there to serve. And I’ve been determined to do that over these last 21 years. So,
MARK WRIGHT 26:59
Give us an idea, Mike, of a typical call, because when we spoke earlier, you said something like last year, more than a hundred death, uh, calls you went out on.
MIKE RYAN 27:08
I was on 101 calls last year.
MARK WRIGHT 27:10
Yeah. So, what, what is a typical call and what does it look like?
MIKE RYAN 27:15
Well, um, it comes in, first of all, fire initiates it because, uh, it usually invariably somebody calls, and they’ve got an unresponsive loved one. Uh, they’ll call 911 and they’ll send, um, an aid car and a medic unit. And when they get on scene, they’ll either identify that the person has already died or they’ll do some, you know, if they transport them to the hospital, they don’t call me because the hospitals have a chaplain on most of the time, but when they get on scene and they discover it’s a DOA, they, they, they will tell dispatch, please have a chaplain come. Um, and, um, so they will send me a, uh, a text message. It used to have pagers at one time, cause I support three agencies. I had three pagers on me. I was walking around, and I was really important, three pagers, but now they just send me a text message and the text message says a chaplain been requested at a certain desk uh, address. I’ll go, um, and look on our dispatch, um, application. You know, I have access to the, to the same dispatch resources that the first responders do. And, um, then I’ll look at the address, look at the notes, and then I’ll come up on the air. They’ve given me a radio and I will um, let them know that, uh, I will be responding. And then I, um, invariably will get a phone call in route by the supervising fire, uh, firefighter or supervising officer on scene to give me an update and what it is I’m going to be walking into, uh, which is a courtesy. It helped me to better serve them when I get there. And then when I get on scene, um, they will introduce me to surviving family members. And, um you know, I will just be with them, um, if they’re still doing an intervention on a patient, if they’ve ceased efforts, then, uh, you know, fire will pull back and it’s now a law enforcement scene and I’ll just work with the family and just be, you know, a presence, a liaison. Sometimes they’re very upset and, um, you know, uh, I had a woman who once came home and found that her husband had committed suicide and, um, he had shot himself and, you know, her kids were coming home from school and she didn’t want them to find that scene, but she was, she was appropriately inconsolable, you know, and in situations like that. You know, as I’ve said before, you can’t make it better, but you can be kind. And, you know, she just needed to, to express that pain. And I, I was there to just keep her safe while she did until other people came to be with her and support her and, um, kind of absorb all of that. And, you know, the investigators are doing their thing. I’m just making sure she’s got her needs met. We get other people to come and be with them. And, um, you know, I serve as a bridge to other caregivers that come in family. So sometimes, sometimes there’s a, been a definite community and, um, you know, somebody that lives in town, maybe they’re over on vacation someplace and they die, and the agency over there wants us to go and notify family. And so, we have this burden of doing death notifications and. And our protocol is always have a chaplain come with you. And so, we have that responsibility of going to people’s homes. And if they have the death of a loved one, inform them of that. And then what I do is I will stay with the family. The officers will get back in service and I help them with the next steps after that kind of a trauma.
MARK WRIGHT 31:16
Is there any way to prepare for those types of things, Mike? Because I just can’t even imagine being the person who has to give that news and to be face to face with, you know, somebody who’s just had such a devastating loss. Is there any way to, to prepare for it, or to recover for it, from it, how, how does that work?
MIKE RYAN 31:37
I, I, uh, for the people who are receiving the news?
MARK WRIGHT 31:40
No, for you, as a, as the person that has to deal with it.
MIKE RYAN 31:43
Well, um, you know, when I first started out, there wasn’t a lot of training on how to effectively do a death notification. Uh, but I took, you know, there, there are trainings that are available to chaplains. We have two academies a year here at our criminal justice training center and at the, uh, at the fire training academy specifically for chaplains. And in that training, um, we learn protocols about what to do on scene. What’s the appropriate way to present a death notification, how to anticipate and respond to the reaction that you get, what you need to do as far as following up is concerned, and then taking care of the emotional impact that it has on us when we do that. And so, you know, the training is helpful. Um, and, uh, it’s, it’s, um, but, but, but, you know, as I, I’ve said, I think earlier in our conversation, the kindest thing to do is just say it and, um, you, you’re knocking on the door two o’clock in the morning, you got a police officer standing there with you, you’re not going to go chasing a rabbit and tell him a story about, well, you know, there was this accident on the other side of the state and your loved one was involved in that. No, you just get to the point. You can fill in the details after the fact, but you know, those are hard. And it takes a toll on all of us to do that, but we know it’s a necessary thing to do and, and, and being in the kindest thing to do is just say it. And then be there to support him.
MARK WRIGHT 33:31
Earlier in my career as a, as a journalist, I worked with a, uh, co-anchor whose husband was an EMT. And, uh, so I got to hear some of the stories that, that he would come home with. And, and she said that every once in a while he would come home and she would say, how was your day? And he would say, well, I killed another kid today. And it was like his, his way of dealing with the idea that he tried and failed to resuscitate a child. And, and I just, it just made me realize that the, the toll, the potential toll that this stuff takes on our first responders. Speak to that, if you would, Mike, and how the organization and the individuals deal with that kind of trauma.
MIKE RYAN 34:17
Well, first of all, um, one of the resilient factors that is built into what our guys are doing is the training that they receive. Um, you know, they need to realize, um, you know, more times than not, the outcome is determined before they ever get on the rig to get there. But there are complicated calls. There are calls where, um, you know, when our medics get on scene, I think medic one, which is a program we have in King County, is one of the best, uh, prehospital intervention programs in the world, it’s outstanding and it gets recognized for that. We bring the emergency room to your home. And, um, you know, there’s a lot of training that these guys go through and, you know, they’ll get out there and they’ll do what they can, but invariably sometimes it’s just, you know, things go wrong and, um you know, the patient presents one way and it turns out there’s something else that’s going on and, and, you know, all of the, they’re, they’re on the phone with an ER doc when they’re on scene. So, they’re, they’re collaborating with the best resources they could possibly have. And, um, you know, I’ve, I, I can say that in the 21 years I’ve been up here that in every instance that they may have lost a patient, but they have done everything possible to give that patient a chance at survival. You know, the toughest thing for our guys is when it’s kids, you know, uh, we do oftentimes they show up on scene. They got a kid that’s in a crisis. That’s what we call a load and go. Um, it’s as best they can. They want to get that kid to the hospital quickly, and so they work at that. But when, when, when the patient doesn’t make it, they, they, you know, they have this false sense of guilt, I shoulda, woulda, coulda, and part of the role as a chaplain, part of our peer support folks, guys is to address that, um, because, uh, you know, there’s a very natural and appropriate reason to feel well, if, if only, you know, and, um, You know, we have the ability, I mean, our, our program, they do clinical reviews of all calls, and um, they have peer reviews, and lessons learned, and they always find ways to do it better next time.
MARK WRIGHT 36:59
How do first responders deal with the trauma, and when do they, when do they know it’s time to get some outside help? I mean, is it pretty common?
MIKE RYAN 37:08
You know, a common rule is if it stays with you, you’ve been traumatized.
MARK WRIGHT 37:12
So, if it’s just something you can’t stop thinking about.
MIKE RYAN 37:15
You can’t seem to shake it off. And it could be, it doesn’t have to be the bloodiest, goriest, horrible auto wreck or whatever. It could be just a simple uh, Sid’s death where a child dies in a crib and, and they happen to have a little child at home. Um, and one of the values of peer support is that, you know, invariably we talk to each other. And, um, you know, we, when I say we, I mean, our, our, our, our administration that, that supervises the medic programs and our police, our police, police supervisors, when they see and hear that there’s been a bad call in the field, where there’s been a residential death that they were involved with, we’re always checking on to see how our people do. With our peer support program on the fire side, when there’s been a bad call, one of our peer counselors will invariably go to the station and just touch base with everybody just to see what’s going on, to see how they’re doing and more times than not, that will just given the guys a chance to kind of ventilate about what happened will help them do that. But sometimes it’s, it’s it takes more than that. And we have a process, it’s called critical incident stress management. It’s a discipline that is used in the first responder community where we have one on one interventions. We have, we have what’s called the diffusing where we get to cruise together soon after the call and talk about the impact that it’s had. We’ll come back sometimes, uh, four, four days to a week later and do, and get everybody that was involved in the call, and we’ll have them kind of unpack that experience and then talk about normal reactions to an abnormal situation. And it’s an opportunity just to check with everybody and to see who’s stuck. And uh, we have mental health professionals that we’ve recruited and have made known to our police and firefighters that are available to uh, see them and help them for the long term.
MARK WRIGHT 39:31
It sounds like a really enlightened approach because I think even when we think about what our military members go through back in the day, you know, people were called shell shocked or whatever and, and shake it off and nobody got help for post-traumatic stress because it wasn’t even recognized. It sounds like the institutions have now really come to understand how to deal systemically with, with the need, right?
MIKE RYAN 39:56
Well, you know, you hear, you know, the media talks about PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. And, you know, one of the things that I point out and we learn is that no first responder is exempt from post-traumatic stress. It’s going to be there. Calls that you go on stay with you. And you process it over time. You learn how to manage it. And, and, and you move on. And you sort of, you file it away. With all of the other bad calls that you have and then invariably there’s going to be a call that just, that you just can’t get past and that’s when you have, um, and it starts to interfere with, with your wellness, your, your resilience, your ability to sleep. And that’s when it’s good to get good care. And, um, we have an infrastructure in place that’s made up of peer counselors, the chaplain, mental health professionals that work together to identify when somebody gets stuck and to help them deal with that so that they don’t get that long term post-traumatic stress injury or post-traumatic stress order that then um, interferes with their ability to do their work, you know, and over the years we’ve had individuals that have kind of gotten to the point to where they’re done and, you know, they need to go do something else. And, uh, there’s no, there’s no, uh, crime in that. That’s absolutely fine.
MARK WRIGHT 41:36
You told me that, uh, the best time to choose a therapist is before you need them. And you said that, uh, that that’s, that’s something that you’ve done that, uh, what does that look like for you?
MIKE RYAN 41:48
Well, you know, we tell, we got a recruit academy going right now. And uh, what we tell them, he says, you guys go find yourself a therapist right now, build rapport. Because over the years you’re going to need them and I, you know, we recommend, you know, once or twice a year, just go in that like you see your doctor for a checkup, an annual checkup, have an MHP that you can go to and just do a checkup, and I practice what I preach. I’ve got a psychologist that I’ve seen over the years and, and, um, cause the chaplains, you know, we, we get impacted by this stuff too. And so, it’s good to have somebody with whom you can safely unpack what you’re dealing with so that the resilience can be restored and get back out there.
MARK WRIGHT 42:35
Yeah. Mike, did you always think that this was sort of your calling, or did it just evolve over time?
MIKE RYAN 42:42
Well, I, I felt called into ministry and, you know, being a pastor of a local church is kind of a multiple role, schizophrenic thing.
MARK WRIGHT 42:53
Lot of hats, right?
MIKE RYAN 42:55
Yeah. And um, and then, you know, when I got invited but to, to begin to give care to police officers, I really found that there was a niche there for me. And, um, over the years, being able to deal with acute trauma. Has, has been something that I have learned to do and I’m comfortable with that. Um, you know, people, including my first responders, wonder how I do what I do when I do it. But I mean, I always say people got, God prepares you to do the things he’s called you to do. Plus, I’ve had good training, I’ve had good mentors and, you know, I’ve been doing this a while. So, um, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s always a helpful thing.
MARK WRIGHT 43:43
I’m going to go a little deep here, Mike, but I think, I think you’ll, you’ll be able to, to handle it cause, cause you’re a pastor. But you know, there’s a lot of debate whether God intercedes independent of people in the world, like some invisible force. And I, I, I, I’m of the opinion that, that getting into that debate is, is, is, is pointless. I do know that God works through people, and I’ve seen that time and time and time again. And I just, I’d love your perspective on, on the idea of knowing when you’re being called and and having that ability to understand when God is tapping you on the shoulder, um, has that happened throughout your life or does it, I’d love to know more about that process in your life.
MIKE RYAN 44:33
Well, uh, yes, God, I believe that God leads and, um, it takes availability. I believe that, um, it’s important to have a relationship with God and, and so I encourage anybody and everyone to, to seek him out. Because the Bible even promises that God is a rewarder of those who seek him and back when I was in college I was challenged by a couple of my teammates to really enter into a personal relationship with Jesus. You know, I was raised in a, in a liturgical environment where everything was mediated through ritual and sacrament. And, um, I’ve learned over the years that God would like to be personally involved in your life, you know, and, uh, that became a hallmark of my own walk back as early as 23 years old and, and, um, and, you know, I, I’ve learned the value of daily prayer time, time to get up. My day starts every day with a with with meditation and prayer and and, uh, you know, I open that dialogue and then it kind of stays with me all day long. And, um, you know, I, I had a mentor who once prayed this prayer, he said, Lord, I’m a suit of ready, wear clothes in your closet today. And if you want to put me on, you know.
MARK WRIGHT 46:16
Put me in coach.
MIKE RYAN 46:17
Put me in coach. Yeah. You know, and then our guy said, you know, Lord, the answer is yes. What’s the question. What do you want me to do?
MARK WRIGHT 46:26
Oh, that’s awesome.
MIKE RYAN 46:27
So, it’s, it’s, it’s being faithful. It’s being available and it’s being teachable. Um, and over the years I’ve tried to honor those three adjectives in my own personal relationship. And, you know, um, if you make yourself available, you’ll find that God will use you and it’s not necessarily going to be in the role that I play because it’s kind of a unique one. But, um, you know, if you seek out the Lord and, and just, just look for opportunities, start moving, you know, it’s like the rudder of a ship. I tell people that if you will try and want to know where God wants to work in your life, get involved in something and as you move, that rudder will steer you where to where you’re supposed to be. You know, I started out as a, as a, a huddle leader in the fellowship of Christian athletes, you know, working with Bible studies with athletes. And then I ended up working with kids in a youth group at a church and ended up preaching. And then, you know, that one thing added to another. And like I said, all of a sudden I get a knock on the door from a couple of police detectives and they needed help with their people. And so, I started in that direction, and that really, you know, became where I landed. I’ve been 38 years now doing this chaplaincy stuff, so.
MARK WRIGHT 47:56
As you look back, Mike, are there moments in your career that stand out as just profound days on the job?
MIKE RYAN 48:06
Well, I have had 11 line of duty deaths, and they change you. Um, every one of them stays with you. Um, our most recent one was the tragic loss of Jordan Jackson here in Bellevue was our first line of duty death and, you know, it’s still pretty fresh for us. It was only been a year and a half since that’s happened. And, um, uh, you know, we still care for and support each other because of that. So those, those, those things, they stay, they, they definitely have stayed with me. Um, I’ve had the privilege of, of doing the memorial services for a lot of these folks and, and those are holy moments, believe me. Um, you know, all of the death notifications that I’ve done have been, you know, things that have stayed with me. Um, and throughout the year, there’s always a couple of calls that, you know, oh my goodness. We had one, uh, recently where a gentleman had gone to lunch with his wife and he had had a head injury a couple of days earlier, you know, and he was having headaches and, and so while they were in the middle of lunch, he had a major seizure. And he went into respiratory arrest, which led to cardiac arrest and being even, even though it was witnessed, um, our medics couldn’t resuscitate the man. And, and so I was there, um, with the surviving wife and, um, it was a pretty tough, emotional afternoon for everybody. Um, uh, because that was not the way they were going to, that, you know, that, that was the last thing they thought was going to happen in their day, you know, so I spent several hours with her and her son. Again, you can’t make it better, but you, you know, just to provide them whatever resources they can. And, and again, I have, I’ve learned over the years that even in those acute traumas, you know, as time goes by, um, I, I learned, uh, uh, it’s a cliche kind of a thing, but it takes three T’s to find a new normal. When you go through a trauma like that, there’s three T’s are time, talk and tears, okay? And, um, you gotta cry it out tears or those pressure release valves that God gives us. Um, talking is so important because that helps you to reframe that experience. The hardest is at the time, you know, to find a new normal after you go through an experience like that. But in time, with talk and tears, it does get better. Doesn’t, doesn’t do any good to say that in the moment, but, um, it, you know, I’ve shared with people probably once a week at least, I say the three T’s, folks, three T’s. So, it’s been true in my life.
MARK WRIGHT 51:26
I wanted to ask you, Mike, because you said something that intrigued me. You said that even in cases where a patient is terminally ill and, and death is expected, that a lot of families just don’t prepare the way that maybe they should. Uh for the death because there’s a lot of coordination if, if people haven’t gone through this a hospice type situation. There are a lot of moving parts, and a lot of things have to be done to make sure that that transition um, you know happens smoothly. What’s the best advice that you have if someone is caring for a terminally ill loved one to, to get actually ready for them passing on?
MIKE RYAN 52:08
Well, you know, uh most uh end of life processes will incorporate a hospice care program. Um, and even while they’re in hospice and, and then when that person does finally die, they’re never really truly ready. But you know, um, there are things that families can do, for example, uh, you know, make prearrangements for the funeral home. We don’t make good decisions in a crisis, and you can spend an awful lot of money. An end of life kinds of stuff. And, and so if you can sit down with your loved one and, and identify a funeral home, you want to work with and make those plans that helps, I’ve seen the difference when a person dies and you’ve got a plan in place, it helps to move you through the process more times than not, even when they’re in hospice, they don’t know what to do. And that’s, that’s the role that I play. I help them navigate that. So that’s one thing. Um, there are checklists that families can take, and it talks about what do you do about a will, what do you do about, you know, financial obligations, bank accounts, um, you know, your last wishes, uh, do you want to be resuscitated, we have this medical terms called a POLS document, which you POLS stands for Physicians Order for Life Sustaining Treatment and includes the DNR in that, you know, if you do not want to be resuscitated. And if you can fill one of those out, you know, I have a, a, a living will in that sense that, you know, if I am, uh, if I’m terminal and no medical intervention is going to really change anything, then let me go. You know, we are so invested sometimes even in prolonging the dying process. We think that’s a kind thing to do, but there’s a difference between extending life and prolonging death and, um, talking about it as family is so important. You know, and, um, when I go to a home and those conversations have been had, there’s joy, there’s celebration, there is, there’s been this process where everybody is released. I mean, I had a call just this last year. I went to this home here in Bellevue and they’d gone through the process. And dad was there on a, in a bed in the family room and everybody had been gathered around and they had prayer and they had talked, and they were ready. And, and, and he, he died in my presence when I was there, and it was a celebrative time. Um, it was sad, but it was celebrated. And, you know, hospice and, and there are resources that are available that can really help families when you can anticipate something like this. But, you know, Billy Graham once said, I can guarantee a salvation today, but not breakfast tomorrow morning. And, and, and more times than not, you know, even when you have a terminal illness, people will, they’ll die unexpectedly. So that’s why they call it practicing medicine, you know, because they can’t really nail it down.
MARK WRIGHT 55:39
Mike, how long you?
MIKE RYAN 55:40
Conversation, that’s how you get ready.
MARK WRIGHT 55:42
Mike, how long are you going to do this?
MIKE RYAN 55:44
Well, um, I got, I, you know, I’m going to go a couple more years for sure.
MARK WRIGHT 55:51
Yeah, I feel like this is not something, this isn’t just a punch the, punch the time clock kind of a thing for you. This is such a life calling and I’m guessing that this work keeps you vibrant as well.
MIKE RYAN 56:03
Yeah, it is. It’s uh, yeah, it does, you know, and I, I, um, you know, I’m working on replacing myself so that I can do a handoff to somebody else, but no, I gotta, I see a couple more years of this. I still um, at three o’clock in the morning when dispatch has called me and asked me to come out, I still, um, I’m honored to go. I feel like it’s a holy moment and, you know, it’s so, so when I get to that point where I’m not another one, you know, well, you, you, you know, I have a couple of friends that I’ve talked to and, you know, I have breakfast with a former chaplain and he knew when it was time and, and, and we were just talking about this last week. He said, you’ll know. I’m not there yet, but one of these days.
MARK WRIGHT 56:55
Well, I’m certainly glad that there are people like you in the world, Mike, who want to do some really hard work that has such a profound impact on other people. It’s just, just a blessing to spend time with you. I’d love to wrap things up, Mike, just by asking, what are you most proud of? What are you most proud of when it comes to this career of being a chaplain?
MIKE RYAN 57:17
I’m proud that I have been able to say yes when called upon. Um, you know, I haven’t just said that I’m available. I have been available. And, um, even when I still was, you know, working a job to raise support to do this work, you know, I, I, I made the commitment that when you need me, I’m going to come. And over the years, I’ve been pretty much able to meet that. Now, I tell them, no, I mean, I’m having a birthday party with my daughter. I’m sorry. I’m not available. My wife and I are out on a date. I’m sorry. I’m not available. I mean, I, I’ve learned to be comfortable saying that and dispatch understands and, you know, reach out to somebody else. Um, but, but, uh, being available is what I felt, you know, I’m, I’m honored that I’ve been able to do that.
MARK WRIGHT 58:13
Well, Mike Ryan, chaplain for Bellevue Police and Fire. Honored to spend time with you and, uh, keep up the great work.
MIKE RYAN 58:20
Thank you, Mark. It’s always good to talk with you.
MARK WRIGHT 58:23
I’m Mark Wright. Thanks for listening to BEATS WORKING, part of the WORKP2P family. New episodes drop every Monday. And if you’ve enjoyed the conversation, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Special thanks to show producer and web editor Tamar Medford. In the coming weeks, you’ll hear from our Contributors Corner and Sidekick Sessions. Join us next week for another episode of BEATS WORKING, where we are winning the game of work.